Pam’s Story: ‘Commit Or Quit’–Her Husband’s Shocking Response

Dear JoAnn,

I am so happy to have found your website. It has been a lifeline over the past few months. I thought you might find interesting some email correspondence between myself and my SA husband. Some background: Found out 3 mos ago that my husband sleeps with men and she male prostitutes. Has done so before I even married him. There is also porn addiction. He confessed. In his confessions, trips to Rio de Janeiro were explained to be part of his acting out his sexual fantasies. Said he wants to recover. Therapy and money controls, where he does not have access. Said wants the marriage.

The past weekend brought up the possibility of him traveling to Brazil! I told him no way, not if he is serious about rebuilding trust and our marriage. He said OK and agreed. The next day during an argument he threatened to go to Brazil anyway.

Below is my email to him and his lovely response.

— Date: Tuesday, September 7, 2010, 3:22 PM

From: ReplyTo: [email protected]
Subject: Brazil- fyi-please read

Please do me a favor, commit or quit. The mere fact that you have asked to go on a trip like that and even threatened to book it any way (you obviously feel denied about it) has made me seriously question your commitment to your so called “recovery”. How are you recovering from a 20 year habit on your own? Answer: YOU ARE NOT. Therapy once a week, and money controls are not enough. While they may limit acting out, and I am appreciative of those things, that is the beginning. The source of the behavior and the damage it has done to me, you and our finances, needs to be healed and rectified. This takes something more than what is in place. I acknowledge the steps you have taken. You have done some for sure and I am grateful.

However, If your “thing” that you need to do is so heavy upon you, driving you off to foreign places so to pursuit your other “interests”-(like the first 3 mos of marriage) I am sorry for you and all of us in this family. Because life as we know it will end on the account of your behavior. Marriage is trust, a covenant and agreement between 2 people. the things you pursuit break the agreement and covenant between us. divorce will ensue. I will be forced to follow through with no other “real choices”. staying married with continued secret behavior is not an option.

I want fidelity and trust, period. If you break that, I believe that the end of our marriage and family life where our daughter is concerned is mostly your fault so you deal. All other issues – communication, happiness, etc, are workable and a work in progress for me as well with my things to work on- I play part in this. But, Continuing lying, infidelity, unhealthy sex, secret life, secret trips etc, is on you, it is not an acceptable way of life for me to stay married to. It breaks our family.

So my stance is clear, and there is no confusion, i will assume that any trips, secret excursions, money cover-ups include acting out, which is grounds for divorce or minimum legal sep. and separate households. I can’t even call it a relapse because your not really in recovery. Otherwise there would be no porn your computer and you would be doing a 12 step or otherwise. there is porn all over it. saw it myself. any 12 step recovery will require you to rid yourself of all porn if you are serious. If You want acceptance of your “other self” because of all the “other” good things that you do, am I really supposed to consider your SA behavior a “small thing” to overlook and go on as usual? That outlook completely minimizes the addiction and its harmful repercussions – STDs. AIDS, HIV. all very possible. not a small thing to overlook. Our daughter could end up an orphan~!

Commitment to recovery and me, that is my boundary. I welcome you to adhere, which I hope you will. If not, the consequences need to be known. You can book your trip and I can consult an attorney about it, we will support 2 separate households instead of 1. No mistakes.

You can enjoy your other “life” and I will start anew. there are worse things for children than divorce. FYI a philandering husband whose habits destroy the mother of their child spiritually, emotionally, and even physically is far worse than living separate lives and healthy co parenting where at least I have a shot, yes a shot, at a healthy relationship with somebody else. Not every man cheats, not everyman is an addict, not every man endangers the life of his wife. you be the judge and decide what you want. without abandon, please. commit or quit if you want our life together. no more limbo. no more lies and secrets.

You said you have a tall order for me– stay in the marriage after finding out and work through recovery with you. I am willing to do that, but only if you are serious. I have a taller order – love me with abandon, and do not pursuit things outside of our marriage. for the rest of our lives. This is even taller, but I am asking it of you.

His response:

“Fuck u u commit or quit!”

.

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Responses

  1. Pam,
    what a nightmare! But I believe you have your answer. You can be damaged even further if you stay with him, and I think you know that. You know what to do, so do it and don’t look back. My prayers are with you.

  2. HI Pam,

    Wow.

    So, are you done, yet? Or, are you going back for more?
    Because I’m thinking there won’t be any new material here.

    Please love yourself enough to walk away. He actually sounds really scary. Get a good lawyer.

    I’m sorry I can’t offer you hope for your marriage. But I’m certain there is hope for you and your children. There is also hope for him, but you can’t give it to him. He has to go and get it. So please take your life as seriously as we do, and cherish it.

    lots of light to you,
    D.

  3. Thank you so much for your support. I am working on details of what I need to do to set up separate life. I will keep everyone posted of my progress. I am so happy to be cared about and this website is a God send. Isn’t it so sad to be dealt such a hand in life? All of us that is by our partners.

    btw – I send copy of this email to his therapist. So she can know where he’s at. Supposed to have joint therapy conversation with her and SA spouse about his “progress” and what a “healthy separation” of us would mean. I want to bring up the separation arrangements with therapist as well. Times he is reasonable, wants to help me set up, others he is angry and threatening. Very stormy and scary.

    Also, btw– he said the stuff on his computer is like methadone, compared to his acting out that right now it is harm reduction. That I need to stop harping him, he needs to the “12 step himself” in his own way. Yeah, he’s right, sure does.

  4. Pam…my heart goes out to you. I applaud you for your strength. Just in church today with my husband, the message was about faithfulness. My husband had a lot to say as we walked to the car. I pray he meant it all. One of the main points of the message though, was standing your ground. I told my husband that is my weakest link. I will no longer accept the morning light as grounds for letting my hurt or anger go. I am happy that he can wake up and be fine, but the hurt he causes doesn’t go away because the sun still chooses to rise. I am just not sure how to set the boundaries? All I can threaten is to separate from him (and that always changes his behavior immediately!). I take the computers to work each day so that he can’t look at porn or chat (he stays home with our baby girl while I work and then he goes to work at night when I get home). But he still has issues with masterbating, though the lack of access has helped. He also still lies. Even about things as dumb as when he gets off work (he is a server). He always breaks down and apologizes and says he doesn’t know why he lies but he wants to put everything he can into place so that he doesn’t even have the opportunity to. I guess it’s somewhat comforting to know he at least wants to stop. We now have decided that he will bring home his clockout slips. I just don’t know what else to do besides that to safeguard us and what to do when he does “mess up”. What kind of other boundaries do you have?
    But may I ask you (because before all of this I wasn’t a snoop), how do you find porn on a computer? Where do I look? I have tried but I am just horrible at computers. What else should I look for? And where??? Would anyone suggest a keylogger program without telling him?

  5. Wow, Pam! This seems all too familiar! My ex -I finally got the courage to divorce the destructive loser – would always
    tell me that he was such a great guy, other than his sex addiction – yes, he could cook and repair a few things but
    only had sex with himself – only cared about his own perverted, carnal desires. He would ask in a perplexed way,
    why couldn’t I accept him and be understanding? Problem was I wanted all the things you do and all the things that any normal women would want. Gee, I guess it was just to hard
    for him to understand why him spending all his time fantasizing and masturbating about other women, doesn’t work in a successful marriage. Why going out with the specific
    goal of making eye contact – better yet, an actual conversation with another women, so you can come home and masturbate, doesn’t make for close marital ties. As if that
    weren’t enough he became the most emotionally abusive guy on the planet – at least my planet AND threw away huge sums of
    OUR money – secretly stealing from accounts and “investing”.
    Had myself a trifecta! Soooooo glad I got rid of him, It’s
    getting better all the time. Your husbands response says it
    all – what a childish, immature asshole! There’s no other term for these creeps! You poured out your heart and he trounced on you. Been there, many, many times. Take your
    daughter and get the heck out. My thoughts and prayers are
    with you, my friend!

  6. What gets me about your post is that you state you would have gratitude/appreciate him doing things right, but that should never have to be asked for……He was supposed to be a husband from the start, and you should NEVER have to ask for the very BASIC respect and treatment a wife should have…honored and cherished. His response, whoa, especially after your true and loving letter to set things that he messed up right, brought back too many memories. Don’t be like I was, doing all the work for his problems, trying to talk and getting bludgeoned instead. Until they want to change…and everything, problems, the cure, everything is caused by them and has to be made right by them……he doesn’t want to be a husband, he wants you to just take him as he is with all the lies and deception….and insults. Now you know, now you can do something and I will tell you as living proof, you will be loved and treated right and your daughter will have a family life as it should be because there are wonderful, good men who want wonderful good women. Please don’t let him treat you like dirt, you are not, he is.

  7. Not sure how a man “recovers” from being gay— What a loser, and a bitchy one too!

    I’m so sorry for your pain, Pam. I’d throw that smelly selfish
    she-fish back into the water!

    Please keep us posted.

  8. Thank you all.
    Elise – you can look at browser history by going to the upper left hand corner of any web page, clicking the gold star. YOu will see “favorites feeds history” click the history tab. I hope that helps. Let me know.

    Lynn – I so want a good family life for my daughter. I am encouraged to hear it can be had. this is madness

    Lorraine = LOL :()

    Leanna – thanks for sharing your wisdom. they are truly creeps. I can’t believe I married this mess. just can’t.

  9. In respone to pam’s reply. Yes, you can go to the history and right click to find out exactly what sights he has gone too, however, usually out of shame and guilt and a night of masturbation, the SA’s usually delete ALL right away. They don’t want to take any chances. That is what my husband told me in a weak moment many months ago. I doubt he would admit that at this point in time.
    Sorry for your frustration – I have been there, and it drives you crazy. They always figure a way to “beat it” and the lieing never stops.

  10. Pam,
    It took a lot of courage to state your boundaries and then follow through with the consequences. I’ve found that to often be the hardest part of the whole equation because it means that you are choosing between self-respect and hope that all will change without you having to make the choice. But you are quite right that it’s far better to be alone in a healthy way with your baby than go through the BS when he’s not committed to recovery. You did the right thing!!
    Good on you. Take care of yourself.

  11. Hi all.
    Just want you to know there is another place where a browser’s history can be checked.
    It’s a little more complicated, but may not be a place the SAs think to delete.
    1) With your browser open click on it’s name it the top left ( Firefox, Safari, e.g.)
    2) From the drop down menu click on ‘preferences’
    3) There will be a menu across the top, click on ‘security’
    4) On the security page look for the topic ‘cookies’
    5) It should be set at ‘accept cookies from sites I visit’
    6) There will be a button to click that says ‘show cookies’
    7) Click on that button and a listing of all sites visited will come up
    8) There is usually a search capability where you can type in sites and it will find them for you in the cookies list
    9) If he’s onto this the list will be empty and I would be highly suspicious

    Love and peace to all of the women at this site for the support and strength sent out. We all have a tough go being marries/separated/divorced from an SA.
    Kacy

  12. I had huge success (?)…..well, i found the truth, on Google Desktop. It is free, you down load it and then after about a day of indexing, you type in key words….mine were “lunch, hotel, sex, love, names of women I suspected he had or was having affairs with”,you get the idea, and BINGO! It ALL came up and more. Emails, websites…everything popped up. I saved them, forwarded them to my sister, printed them, and saved to a disk too. Once they find out you are finding out, they will wipe out your computer, so be sure to send them to someone and save them. They will also change the passwords so you can’t check their computer anymore, so work quick.
    I went armed with all my documents to his therapists so he couldn’t lie to them (but he did anyway)…..but then I had to use them for court to divorce him.

  13. For everyone trying to find out history. I found a program by Spector Pro. It monitors all websites visited, records emails and chats, and takes screen shots every so many seconds. You can set the number of seconds in between shots. It runs unnoticed and requires passwords and a special key code to open the program. Caught my SA with this for the second time, even though he would delete the browser history. My SA now no longer has access to the computer in our household with small children.

  14. Thanks Lynn. Tried to download google desktop and it wouldn’t do it on my computer. Apparently, it only downloads on windows xp/vista. Any other ideas?
    Flora-Thanks for the idea of spector pro. My son put it on my husband’s computer, but took it off when I moved out. I may have to resort to it again, but it is a little more difficult because I never know when he is not there. I have one window of 2 hrs. when he is at his therapist. I think it is expensive.

  15. Thanks Joann – Steve has windows xp and lenux as his main system. He is a Data Base Administrator, so very sharp on picking up things on his computer.
    I just want to tell you this site has been a God Send in listening to others and realizing the similarities of all SA’s, and also how we all go through the same trials and tribulations. I also didn’t realize that we all pretty much respond the same way to their lieing and manipulating behavior.

  16. Thanks for the kind words sharron, my whole purpose in starting this site was to help others.

    Linux systems are tricky and there are software keyloggers that can be installed on those systems, but, unless you are a computer techie you would not be able to do it.

    There is a cute little gadget that you can install on a Linux computer, but, it goes on the back of his machine, and if he is like me and fiddles with the back of his computer very often, he might find it.

    You must have access to the computer to plug it in and then access to take it off and read it (you should order the reader too). You can just take it home and read it on your computer. But, if that works for you it is a good bet.The nice part is that there is no software installed, so, unless he sees this small adapter on the back of the computer he can never find it no matter how detailed his computer work is. Here is the link:

    http://www.keyghost.com/kgpro.htm

    You can install most keyloggers, like WebWatcher on windows XP. It is positively undetectable even with the most sophisticated anti virus programs.

    Just remember–what is your reason for using a keylogger? If it is to get evidence, then get the evidence and do whatever you have planned with it, such as filing for a divorce or separating . It is very easy and very unhealthy to get caught up into just ‘watching’ what he is doing all the time. That will kill you emotionally.

  17. We set up spywares on the computer..we snoop..we look at the fone bills..we keep checking their cell fones..we try to find out every bit of info about the women they are sleeping with..but then what?

    I am sorry if i sound disillusioned .Am in such pain.

    I havoe walked out on my SA.But not before i investigated everything thoroughly.The snooping then took a life of its own and it took me a long time to stop doing it.

    The distrust and the uncertainties they plant in your head get so deeply rooted that snooping becomes your second nature.

    24 x 7 all you can think of is what is he upto and how do i catch him.It becomes a way of life for you..a battle of wits, so to say.

    And believe me when i say this, what you will find won’t be even 10% of the stuff they are upto.THey won’t even admit to stuff..not even when you have hard evidence.You can forget them fessing up about stuff you have no clue about.

    They always accuse you of making mountains out of molehills..whereas they always make molehills out of the mountains of evidence you present them with.

    The filth is so widespread ,both in terms of activities and time,its outside the realms of our wildest imagination.

    With me it got to a stage that i just had to think of something and for sure i would find deception there.

    The only cap on his perversion was my lack of imagination.If i could imagine or think of some new perversion i would find it.

    Then one day i just decided…enough is enough..one more chatroom pickup..one more web listing..one more secret email id..one more personal ad asking for sex..one more ad asking for a threesome..one more hooker..one more massage parlor visit…one more number with midnite texting continuing for hours…one more number with 2 hour fone calls in the middle of the night .one more id on his YM friends list..one more pic in his mailbox..one more site visit..one more secret holiday with his wife who he was supposedly divorcing..one more use of a brand new phrase used by him during lovemaking germinating from some other woman..one more lie..one more lie about a lie..all this did not make a damn difference to what i had already found out.They were all one too many in any case.

    So i said goodbye to all the snooping and goodbye to him as well.

  18. I know what you mean about snooping taking on a life of its’ own! I installed webwatcher and it took some doing to get me to stop using it. Of course, once I confronted him, he had his computer wiped and reformatted, which is the only way to remove webwatcher. I’m happy he did because my will to stop snooping isn’t strong enough and I don’t want to ever open up a file and see all of the crap he’s been up to again – I can’t bear that sick knot that forms in my gut, the shaking, the rush of brains chemicals that make me want to jump out of my skin and physically assault him at once.

    But – if I hadn’t gathered the evidence, I wouldn’t be here. I’d still be flailing around in the lies and half truths and hinky feelings and gnawing intuition – none of which was enough for me to know what I needed to do or who and what I was dealing with. Now, I know and I’m really thankful for that.

    I still haven’t left my SA. I still wonder what the extent of his activities were and I suppose I may never know. I’m working on myself and hoping I get to a place where I am stronger enough to do the right thing for myself.

  19. Interesting discussion,
    I’m not a snooper, checker etc. Maybe that’s just a mild form of “if I don’t see this it will go away”, but actually I was responding in other ways–like financial planning, personal support, sorting out property issues etc.

    When I read some of the postings I just don’t get this behaviour. It feels obsessive to me, and doesn’t yield much help in the long run. Like checking websites, seeing if they are still posting on craiglist, doing cell phone searches etc. What is it that you are looking for? If it’s evidence, then why aren’t more of the women posting separated or divorced? They must have the evidence by now. So what is the compulsion to do this all about?

    Help me understand. I just don’t have this compulsion or obsession, and sometimes when i read the posts about it, I just feel like screaming “STOP!!!” THIS IS CRAZY! It’s the one place on this site where I feel a disconnect with other women.

    Maybe that’s a whole topic for discussion—when does inquiry become obssession? or when does boundary reinforcing become compusive behaviour? I have a hunch this is important to all of us.

    D.

  20. For me it helped me to understand what the true form of the addiction was and what lenghts he would go to and what he was looking for or doing. This answered my question…He would not have told me he was viewing porn in front of our 2 year old. NEVER EVER. Even to this day he tries to deny what I know, even with hard facts he tries to maintain that he minimized the screen when she came in the room. I know that he did not. He still is not aware of the software I have.

    So I think on some level it has to be done. But at some point it does have to end. For the children and household he no longer has access to the computer at home. It is locked with passwords. If he needs to use the computer he can go elsewhere. It also made the decision to put our daughter in daycare which is the best place for her. Otherwise I would have had no idea. They are too good at covering their tracks. So it does have to stop, but you also must be fully aware of the addiction so you can take the precautions for the household and family.

  21. thanks, Flora,
    what you say makes sense to me.

    So how do we know when its time to stop? How do we ever let go?

    In some respect I think I understand at the level of telling and re-telling the story of this trauma in my life. Retelling often reveals another layer of my feelings, or another part of the wound. This site is designed to allow us to do that safely and I’ve certainly done my share.

    But if we keep going back, over and over again, is it because we haven’t let go of its power over us? How does that happen? I know that sometimes the way we tell a story changes because we’ve let the power go that it had over our selves, and found a way to live with the facts of it.

    I don’t know. does anybody?

    D.

  22. I have been following the comments about checking our SA’s and I have to say that I understand both camps of women, those who do and those who don’t. I DID check his phone, computer, car, etc. at the time of my discovery because I sensed that he would lie to me and I needed to know the truth before I confronted him. For a long time afterwards, I had an overwhelming urge to check, but managed to resist it. I thought about why I wanted to check, and the answer for me wasn’t so that I could control or change his behavior in any way. I don’t want a husband who does the right thing for me and our marriage because I want him to, I want a husband who does the right thing because HE wants to. I wanted to check because I didn’t want to be “made a fool of again.” I didn’t want something that had so much of an impact on my life to be a secret from me, and I had no trust in him at all. I thought if he started acting out again, eventually I would know some other way or would know that I needed to check because the “toxicity” feeling in the house would be back and I believe that’s true, especially now because I am paying really close attention to attitudes, demeanors, subtle behaviors. What I had trouble accepting was that there would be a period of time where he was acting out BEFORE I figured it out and I would be living my life normally while the toxicity was building. I didn’t want that feeling again, ever. I also remembered, however, how much I resented having to check that time that I did and how that made me feel all caught up in his life and his behaviors and his addiction. I settled for I want complete access to everything anytime I want it, and I will check if I feel like there is toxicity coming back into the house, in terms of more emotional distance, behavior that doesn’t make sense or just makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck, etc. My boundary is that if he acts out again, he moves out. I also understand that if we check and don’t find anything, it doesn’t mean nothing is happening and that reinforces avoiding checking regularly for me. My husband is a very bright guy, just like most SA’s, and he could hide anything he wanted to in terms of physical evidence. But he can’t sustain closer personal interactions if he is acting out, would tend to want to isolate, more emotional distance, etc. And my secret weapon, if you will, is that I know what that looks like and feels like from all of those years of living with him prior to discovery.I have told him that if he acts out I will know it eventually, and if I feel like I have to discover it on my own, I have no interest in reconciliation, because I choose not to live like that. And for me, if I live that way, I let this addiction take more time and energy away from my own life, and the addiction wins again.

    ….but I definitely understand both choices.

  23. Thanks for all the replies. I am separated from my husband. (1 month) He is going to attend an intensive out-patient program in October, and my reason for checking is to find out how serious he is about recovery. He is spending a lot of money to do this, so if he is still hitting all the inappropriate sites I would know he is only doing it to appease me and try to save our marriage.
    I know how unhealthy it is to have to check all the time – have been there and done that, so don’t intend to start again. I also know the percentage’s in regard to an SA recovering, so certainly am not holding out much hope. His therapist asked me to not file for an annulment until he returns and I go over his progress with her, so I agreed to do that.
    I totally sympathize with all of you and what you are going through. I can certainly relate to it. I have to tell you that I am 99% sure I will never go back to him. I have been hurt too much already, and certainly do not want the pain again.

  24. Yes Diane, The snooping is obsessive. The quest for the truth once and for all was the initial obsession. I simply wanted to know who and what I was dealing with so that I could make an informed decision about my future with this man. I had no idea he was an SA. If I had, I suppose snooping would’ve been nothing more than gathering gory details to make myself feel crappy over.

    Even now, while I know he’s a porn addict, likely SA – I still have no proof he acted out physically with anyone else- I guess the temptation with snooping, and maybe it’s real and maybe it’s not, is the promise that you will find that piece of information that makes your choice crystal clear – an end to ambiguity.

    I am white knuckling it now – I don’t want to know but then I do – how can I trust my intuition when I’ve been so wrong for so long?

  25. To Mayam:

    Go with your’e gut – as I look back over my life I can see many situations where I should have followed that intuition.
    Now, I always go with my gut, and it never fails me.

  26. Thank you all. You’ve given me so much to think about.

    Mayam, the one that really hit home is when you said “I guess the temptation with snooping, and maybe it’s real and maybe it’s not, is the promise that you will find that piece of information that makes your choice crystal clear – an end to ambiguity.” I totally understand that need. I’m wrestling with it right now–just in a different way.

    But what about the torture to ourselves? What is the impact on us —body, mind, spirit—of the compulsive or obsessive revisiting the scene of the crime? Maybe we need to get clear what is the thing that will remove that ambiguity for us. What is that will enable us to close that chapter and move one? What will it take for me to accept that my partner/spouse was able to throw me and/or our marriage under the bus–sometimes many times? Disbelief is not the same as denial. Saying “I can’t believe he did that to me” is different from “I won’t believe he did that to me”.

    Anyhow thank you all for being so honest about this aspect of your experience. I don’t know why I don’t do it myself—but maybe I do other things.

    love,
    D.

  27. It is torture but one is acclimated to it over time. I have my moments of perspective – fleeting but getting more frequent – the fog lifts and I see the big picture and that the details don’t matter – it’s crazy. Being in a relationship with a man who lies constantly and makes me feel anxious and obsessive is not good – in fact it’s bad, unnecessary, abnormal, not offering any of the benefits of a loving relationship – like safety, security, trust, intimacy. No matter what I find out or don’t find out, no matter what he promises – it’s not worth it! I know this but the day to day, the familiarity – it sucks me back down under the murky waters and I’m confused once again.

    I can’t believe he would email escorts and spend half his week watching adult websites but I do. What’s harder for me to believe is that I’m stil here with him. That’s the truly perplexing part. If someone had asked me what I would do in this exact situation a few years ago, I wouldn’t have hesitated to tell them I wouldn’t tolerate it for a second yet here I am.

    1. Mayam-
      I am perfectly in your position. I found out about an “affair” which led to this whole other nightmare of a life 4 years ago. Finding out the constant hookups, one after another, women then men, then tranny’s… etc…Every site you can think of from craigslist to backpage to backdoor to redbook…I have seen it all. I was angry, in denial, desperate sadness…and have gone repeatedly through those cycles still. However, as discusting and heartbreaking as the details can be, I can only think it is through contstantly seeing him doing these things…still, lying about all of it, still attacking me when I am too close to the truth etc…it is the only way I will ever find my way out of this mess. So I monitor…I am not surprised at what I see…sickened yes, but not surprised…while I plan my out…it is all I can do.

  28. I find it much more difficult and stressful to always be looking for subtle clues in my SAH’s behavior and demeanor. I have a program installed on his computer at his office, that he is unaware of, that I like quite well. It is eBlaster by Spector. It gives me everything I require, is easy to use, and I glance at the reports when they come in. If he opens a secret email account, as long as it is on that computer, I will have the info on that also. I haven’t found anything lately, and I know that he can be acting out anyway, but this gives me a little bit of security even if it’s false security. I am impatient, don’t want to wait around to have something just fall in my lap if I can help it. His addiction is always on my mind anyway, I don’t think this makes it any worse. I mean, really, how can any of us forget what our SA did? I will never look at his face again without seeing that side of him.

  29. Diane, mayam, and Sally: It seems like we are all needing validation to get out. I went through that for almost two years. 1 month ago I left him and never felt such a sense of relief in my life. I was constantly in turmoil. It got to the point where I had to save myself. We started out seeing eachother 1 night a week for “date night”, and talked on the phone almost every day. And then, I checked the computer one more time and found he was still lieing. So, I
    guess sometimes the validation finally sinks in. When he would come over for date night, I would get that anxious sick
    feeling in the pit of my stomach when he would come to the door to pick me up. Just going out in public with him was so traumatic I couldn’t take it anymore-constantly having to be on guard and getting upset if I would catch him triggering. NOT WORTH IT! I told him from the get go that all he had to do was tell me the truth at all times, and if he was totally dedicated to getting better I would stand by him, and he couldn’t even do that. But, as Diane so eloquently put it -” What will it take to realize my spouse is able to throw me under the bus for his addiction”
    I finally told him no talking on the phone and no date night. I feel totally at peace with my decision. I still have to have some contact with him on the phone regarding financial matters, and even that causes anxiety.
    So bottom line is- we all need to take care of #1. We are worthy of honesty, intimacy, and trust. I gave up a beautiful home and financial security to move back in to a very small condo and when I divorce him, a very limited income- that is what living on the edge of insanity will do
    for you. Get out, you all!! At the risk of sounding a little corny – hold on to whatever your higher power is. I love that song “You’ll Never Walk Alone” That is what I do when there is the temptation to go back. Intellectually, we all know the right thing to do, but on an emmotional level we just have to “Get our Belly Full.”

  30. Thanks JoAnn. I will download it onto my computer and see how it works. Then, should I decide to check 1 last time to indicate his motivation, I will download on his computer.
    Thanks for the help. You certainly put your heart and soul into helping others

  31. So, all in all,

    there is a difference between monitoring computers etc., as part of a mutually agreed upon boundary check, where the SA is actively pursuing and maintaining sobriety and working on his therapeutic journey, and the monitoring is about our need to know boundaries are being respected, and our relationship is still on track…

    and

    the compulsive or obsessive checking up on SA’s who have made no commitment to recovery, where we are still involving ourselves in their crazy world, perhaps as some attempt to feel we are more in control because we have knowledge of what they are doing.

    That may a little rough, but It might help us to examine our own behaviours and the direction to which they point.

    D.

  32. sharron,

    My advice would be to open your ‘my computer’ and make a new folder in ‘my documents’ called anything you like, such as ‘recipes’ or ‘flowers’. Open that folder and drag the google desktop icon from your desktop into that folder. (drag by putting your mouse pointer over it and holding the left button down while you drag the icon into the open folder, release the button when you get it into the folder) Then, whenever you want to start it simply go to that folder and click the shortcut icon.

    To delete the shortcut icon from your desktop if it is still there after you dragged it into your new folder, just put your mouse pointer over it and right click it. You will see a menu–scroll down and click ‘delete’. Do the same on your start menu (click Start, which is that little windows icon in the lower left corner of your computer) then ‘all programs’. Scroll to ‘google desktop’, right click and hit delete.

    Now, don’t forget to click on your recycle bin and hit ’empty recycle bin’.

  33. Diane and Sharron,
    Thanks for sharing!
    Yes, Diane, agreed big difference in the two ways monitoring might be used. Although, a third might be “fact finding” for those, like me, who knew something was wrong and had no idea what it was – I thought he could be reconciling with his wife, he could be a closet homosexual, could have a girlfriend, could just be someone who compulsively tells white lies for no real reason – I needed to know because, as pathetic as it might sound, he can be pretty great outside of his addiction.

    But yes, my snooping turned into a compulsion that I thought would offer me control and protection. I’m fighting the urge and hope I am done with it for good. I don’t think I would even monitor as a mutually agreed upon component of his recovery. If he wants to hide something from me, there are a million ways he can do it, so at the end of the day, it’s got to be more than “I only trust him as far as I can throw him.” It has to be.

  34. I am glad I checked, and would do it all over again….no choice if you live with a liar. I had to find out exactly what I was living with, he had the opportunity to get help and change with me by his side, or he could choose to continue (deep end!) and lose his family. He chose to lose us, but abused us first, actually has continued even to hurt us. No access has been exceptionally wonderful and my husband now has put up the barrier from him getting to me anymore. But I still have to protect my son.
    I had to have the truth then and I think that is an “obsession” that is quite healthy…..to stop the lying. We have a child together, so I still have to check, now to protect my child, even though I have remarried and am happy, my child is exposed to the same person who is nothing but a destructive (to himself and others) sick, malignant, individual. Courts don’t take anything but hard proof.

  35. Okay, Lynn,
    so maybe a third category here…

    the checking that is about positioning yourself and your children for maximum safety and financial provision, until you can get out. Sort of Research and Development?

    D.

  36. Diane,
    Yes I think a third category is necessary.
    I think it is okay to search as long as it is serving a purpose such as this or trying to find out what is going on?? Like some others posted.
    I have realized that I will never know all that he has done unless he tells me. Which we all know the likelihood of that is about zero percent. All the searching will probably never have the answers I am looking for and if so it may lead to a false sense of safety. I think the answer is creating an environment where you feel safe. As noted in the book by Barbara Steffens. Throw out the computer if necessary.

    I have read a few books about sex addicts who did take initiative. One example was a man who had worked in an office setting and had easy access to computer etc. His issue was porn. To rid the triggers, he got a job which did not require access to computers, threw out the home computer, had an old TV which could not get cable and did not have a DVD player. Now thats initiative!! There are computers for use for free at the library.

    I no longer search, but I also don’t walk around with blinders on. That is unsafe to0, let the SA run rampant with no check and balance. That’s where the boundaries come in.

    But for me I realize i will never know all that he has done. I have the basic facts. He lies. He does not act in the best interest of me, kids, or marriage. Has continually acted in selfish ways. Lacks contribution to the relationship and family. Expects me to do everything for him while he sits on his ass. I am tired of living with a little boy. I have looked to other areas to form my decision (or to begin forming my decision). Most likely there are other things in the relationship that you may very well not be happy with. These are indicators of the underlying problem, which some of us expected there was, but had difficulty uncovering. Then I have to ask myslef am I willing to live like this for the rest of my life?? No. It’s now just a determination of when to cut the tow rope.

    I also focus on how he is handling his recovery. Does he have a plan? Is he working to better himself? Has he taken the initiative? Is he doing more than set in the boundaries? Does he seem remoresefull? Is he actvily pursuing recovery?
    The answers for this are yet again No.

    As my therapist said you should wait a year before making any life changing decisions. It has been six months and I don’t think I will make it in this way of life for another 6 months with my sanity. One day at a time….

    Checking and obsessing is no way to live. Look to other areas. Or decide if having more info is really helpfull? or do you already have enough??

    I am newbie, but these are my thoughts.

  37. Dear Flora,

    Newbie Shmewbie! You have as much to share as anyone.

    I just want to say to everyone who went nuts on this thread yesterday—thankyou!

    I learned so much from you. Such insight, self-understanding, straight talking, clarity, passion, reflective analysis, courage, practical smarts. My God we should running a small oil company.

    love,
    D.

  38. We should be running a small or large oil company! When I think of the time and creativity and intelligence we waste on our SAs – I really think we could be curing cancer instead!

  39. Hi all lovelys:

    here is a little update to my commit or quit story. SA now showing remorse, willingness to go to 12 step, doesn’t want to lose me, wants to change his life, he is ready on board to do the work, blah blah. Why do I think I am being played here? So want to believe! Hate closing the door on someone I have loved so much. If I set boundary that he go to 12 step, and he shows committment, progress, is it insane to stay in the home? Why is it so hard to just get up and leave these guys! I am struggling so, so heart torn. Hate sepeartion and divorce, hate it. But I feel as soon as I get close to the door, how quickly his behavior starts changing. But promises, promises. Say I move out as planned anyhow, how will I know that he is making progress? keeping his committments? please, need of advice. Am I being suckered here to another lie? What a life this is. nutz.

  40. Yes, abusers’ behavior typically changes temporarily when their patsy, I mean partner is about to walk out the door. That’s what they do. Its a never ending cycle of abuse— amends— honeymoon— complacency— build up— abuse— honeymoon…

    That was the home I grew up in, until my mom finally threw my father out when I was 14, as he was threatening to kill us. And that was 40 years ago. Divorce was almost non-existent and hugely stigmatized. But she did the right thing. As bad as the situation was and as bad as the fall-out was, she rallied her internal forces and saved us.

    Listen to your heart. It will tell you what you need to do and when you’re done or not done. I’m so sorry for you pain.

  41. Thank you Lorraine. My parents stayed together, had ups and downs, but overall had a good marriage. How the hell did I end up here? I guess we all ask ourselves that. I think the fact that their marriage lasted makes it that much harder to leave, feel like I am bailing. My Dad knows all about the SA behavior, told him, he supports my going. What am I waiting for? why am I so GD afraid? pray for strength!!! I was single a long while before I married. I mean 9 yrs married is long, but not an eternity. thanks so much for love and support.

  42. up too late as usual.

    Happy ending Pam… My mom remarried a wonderful man, about 7 years after she dumped my mentally deranged father and lived a happy and fulfilling life with him until he died in 2000. He was a wonderful step-father to me and my sister and brother. He lent me 10k in seed money to start up my business and he showed me in so many other ways that not every man was a monster. He was the one who walked me down the aisle, when I married my husband.

    Don’t beat yourself up…Whatever you decide.. It will be the RIGHT decision for you.

    xo

  43. Hi Pam – I understand what you are going through. I separated from my husband last May, and he whipped into shape (He didn’t want to lose me) by continuing therapy, journaling, attending a christian based SA group, and attended the meadows for a weeklong session on Love addiction/Love Avoidance. I saw progress for a while – moved back in, and the behavior started all over again. Lieing, minimizing, partial truths, manipulation, and had an affinity for turning his stories around and projecting them onto me. I felt like I was the one who was crazy. He continued lieing to his therapist and myself.
    I moved out for the second time on August 1 because of the continual lieing – this guy can’t tell the truth! Again, history is repeating itself. He has now committing to a 2-week Intensive out-patient program in L.A. because he states, “I have hit bottom.”
    His therapist told me before I married him had she gotten him 30 years ago, possibly she could have helped him He is 66 y/o. I should have listened, however, I like you, got caught up in the roller-coaster ride – showing progress for a short period of time, and then right back to the addiction.
    Your’e husband, if he agrees to do so, is looking at years of therapy ahead of him. It boils down to Do you really want to commit to this with him, and continue the frustration of never knowing where he is at in his recovery. How will you ever know? you probably won’t! These guys are extremely manipulative and learn to tell partial truths – enough to make you think he is on the level, and hook you back in again. You will drive yourself crazy always wondering if he has changed. It is my opinion that at his age a leopard doess not change its spots.
    My advice would be to do exactly what I did. Move out, step totally out of his life. Don’t see or talk to him (unless it is necessary for family matters) and make him realize he has to do this on his own. If he is serious about recovery, he will commit to 1 on 1 with a therapist once a week and a 12-step program.

    It is up to him to re-build the trust he has broken, It may take two or three years before you see any difference in his behavior. Sounds like he has continually broken the boundaries. Stay away from him and take care of your own healing process.
    Again how will you know? I would recommend after he is in therapy a year, start attending with him if you still feel the need to make the relationship work, then get feed back from his therapist. And most of all rely on your “gut” it
    never fails you.
    This is my plan, but it has to be different for everyone. Just don’t get sucked back in with his manipulation.

  44. Thank God for all of you. I don’t know what I’d do without the support of those in the “know.” May we all find the happy ending we deserve in life, as wonderful women and mothers who can love and commit. How sad for the SA’s, a life of lies and no love.

  45. Im so torn. My husband takes full responsibility for what he has done but he can be so emotionally and verbally abusive. I do believe he is bipolar. If he could only get himself together. Instead he is just terribly depressed. Said he can hardly stand to look at me or be around me because he just sees what he has done to me and our marriage. He also lies constantly. Even when faced with the truth. I don’t know what to do. If it weren’t for our 4 month old I would be gone. It’s not that I don’t love him, I just don’t want to spend the rest of my life 2nd guessing EVERYTHING he says. Also, I have a mac and I downloaded google desktop but I have NO CLUE how to use it. All I get when I hit the icon is a quick search bar. And if I click on anything it brings up, it just takes me to a google search page? Can someone please help?

  46. Dear Elise,

    One of the wise women on this site said ” look at the behavior, not what they say”. Good words to live by. If someone is taking full responsibility, why are they lying all the time? And yes, if only they could get themselves together, so sad for us as wives. At then end of the day, I think we just need to decide what we can live with, and what we can’t. I dropped my 4 yr ol off at kindergarten today, and I looked around at all the moms and dads and thought to myself, how many of these women are worried about their husband acting out today? probably 0. these women wore smiles.

  47. He said he doesn’t know why he lies to me. He said since he isn’t cheating and looking at porn anymore, he still has this need to deceive me. It’s something as simple as what time he gets off work. He has started bringing me home his clockout slips from work (he is a server). However, next week, his school starts back up and how will I really know when he got out of class? Or if he even went??? I just feel so helpless. I know he wants to get better. I just feel like he doesn’t have the strength if there is a way to be deceitful. I too look at other women and think the same things. Will I do this the rest of my life?

  48. I wish I had more answers. I think I will live this way the rest of my life if I don’t do something change it. I don’t think mine is changing anytime soon. ‘wanting to” and actively doing something about a problem are 2 different things. My SA says he wants to get well too. I believe he may have acted out this past weekend. it’s all BS if you ask me. I can’t say for your situation, if he is willing to rebuild trust, so that you worry less etc. Perhaps he can, and you can strive daily to set boundaries, transparancy, build trust, I dunno. My SA is a retard so I cant expect too much. πŸ™‚

  49. I just laughed. Thank you Pam. Ladies, I know we all use first names only or fake names (in my case) but honestly, I would love to meet you all. I say we have a weekend where we get together and laugh, cry, eat, and relax. I can’t tell you what having a few glasses of wine and talking to someone who knows why I could easily finish the bottle would do for my tired soul. We could call it a convention so that it could be tax deductible.

  50. Hi Elsie my husband continually told me he doesn’t know why he lies. This is a life-long process for an SA and I have read literature to support that sometimes it is easier to get over the addiction than the lieing. SA’s usually have a really low self-esteem, and I feel sometimes you are put in the position of being their mother. I know I was. He may want to get better my husband does, but the bottom line is it will take years of therapy to accomplish that goal.
    In the meantime, what is it doing to you? I can’t speak for everyone, but after I made the decision to separate I felt totally confident in my decision and I don’t have the constant daily frustration. Perhaps a trial separation will get his attention and he will become serious about his recovery. You have to take care of yourself and realize what it is doing to your mental and physical health.

  51. I love the idea of getting together – it would depend on the distance and if I can afford it. I can always charge it to my husband Ha! I live in Prairie Village, Ks. Where do you all live

  52. Sharron,
    In short, its ripping my life away. I used to be hilarious. I used to be pretty and look young for my age ( I am only 28 but people used to guess me for 20 or 21). I used to be thin and in shape and confident. Now…I cry a lot. I avoid social gatherings. I can hardly contribute to conversations, let alone throw in a joke. None of my clothes fit because I have gained 20 back since having the baby and its added on to the pregnancy weight I haven’t shed. Sadly, sometimes I look at my amazing daughter and don’t know whether to kneel and thank Jesus for her in my life or cry at the thought that she may figure out how nasty this world is all too soon. My favorite band is Over The Rhine and they have a song called “Changes Come” and my favorite line says,
    “I wanna have a baby,
    But somedays I think that maybe,
    This whole worlds too f*cked up for any first born son.” What have I brought her in to? Do I take her out immediately and start a new life or do I give my husband a chance to be the man I know he can be. The man that used to hold 5 things in one hand so he could hold my hand with his other now can hardly touch me. I told him I will stay as long as he continually strives to get better. I don’t know what other consequences to inforce when he lies or “screws up” though. I just wish the world knew so I could stop pretending. My cousin just got engaged and asked us to do all the wedding music (he plays guitar and I sing). That should be a BLAST.

  53. And I live in Cincinnati OH. We could get a cabin that sleeps a bunch and has a hot tub and all the relaxing things a forest can provide? That should be pretty cheap if there are enough of us. We (I) could cook all our meals. And I agree with Sharron…SA’s pay. We’ve paid enough for their mistakes.

  54. Elsie I hope you are getting counseling to assist you in making your decision. “Heal Thyself” You need to put your’e child 1st and think of her as a gift from God. Things always happen for a reason. The best gift you can give her is to give her love and a functional home life. Do not get caught up in the “He will change” mode of thinking. It is easy to do that when you are on that roller coaster – of ups and downs. I had to realize that my husband’s recovery should not be the focus of my life. I am a Psychiatric nurse, and for a while I put myself in the caretaker role. Big mistake! He, too, was loving, attentive, and totally into me during the first part of the relationship. Because SA’s cannot deal with intimacy, after he got me, he began to push away I would suspect this is what is happening to you.
    Your 1s priority should be you and the baby. If you are in a toxic relationship, and it sounds like you are, then remove yourself from the situation.

  55. Elsie- sorry have have to continue with a new E-mail My computer locked up.
    You can set up boundaries with him. If he agrees to get counseling and do the work it takes for recovery, then you will be there for him. (If that is what you choose). SA’s are very manipulative and are experts on keeping you hooked.
    Again, it is my opinion you should get out of this toxic relationship. But you have to do what is right for you.
    I know it is a difficult decision to make, especially when a child is involved. You said you are having doubts regarding bringing your child into this world and the environment he is in. A child picks up on friction in a relationship, and it will be unhealthy for him to be brought up in such an environment. That is only my opinion. Good Luck. I am confident you will make the right decision.

  56. Elise,
    I’m getting in on this late but…this is only opinion of course but to my mind you’re so young and clearly very bright and a loving mom, you could start over so easily without this weight around your neck. Your daughter needs a sane home with a happy, healthy mom far more than she needs to have both parents under one roof – particular if one has these issues.

  57. Hi All,
    I live in East Lyme, CT.
    Would love a getaway as well and be able to talk to people who know. Most people around us do not know, and we can’t talk to them or they just don’t want to hear it.

    Elise,
    I am making the same decision as you. I have a three children, ages 3, 14 and 15. He seems like a kind father, but based on what? He has proven to be not so great in many other areas. The older two are from a previous marriage and my 3 yr old with my sa. But I have to agree with the having a stable home life. I have the same decision to think over. I am not as young as you, but 36, if I waist another 10 on him, more good years gone. All my childrend are girls. I worry for all three, but especially the older two as they are getting to be young women growing up in a messed up household. With an step dad who does not think much of women excpet for his wants and is a lazy partner.

    What makes these decisions so hard. You feel like just because it is porn, atleast all that we know of, that it should be given less weight. As society likes us to think it is just a guy thing. But I often worry has he taken this to the next level, as it is a progressive disease, and I just don;t know it. He has been at this since he was 11, 24 years, things just don;t go away. In no part do I see how this would be easy as he claims it is. This is why a worry for my girls, i worry that he may go a level up for his next if or as he progresses.

    Hope you are all well. It’s Friday!!

  58. P.S. My SA was very sorry and crying as well. he wrote a disclosure stating he was sorry, that he had hurt our relationthip, and that what he had done was poisen to our relatonship etc etc two pages.

    Three months later he was back at it. Caught him with software on the computer. Otherwise I would not have known. So like everyone said. There is some major acting going on. It seems genuine, sincere, they cry. But they don’t mean it.

    I don’t know how we will. I have read that there demeanor will change. So far I have not seen it.

  59. I think they mean the tears at the time. I think we have to not apply normal ways of acting, thinking and feeling to our Sas. They have immaturely developed personalities – there is the person they want to be, who they pretend to the world they are and there is the secret life. When the secret life is exposed, they’re ashamed and relieved and they really believe the catharsis the discovery causes will propel them to finally integrating their two selves so that they might become the person they wish to be.

    The problem is that integrating two selves, especially when the toxic, addicted one is actually much more insistant on winning out and has always been catered to like a spoiled child – is near impossible. The SA might get off to a great start only to be unable to sustain it.

    I don’t know that they are faking remorse, so much as it’s a transient emotion for them and what are they remorseful about really – they liked what they were doing, it fulfilled a deep need in them. They are remorseful to discovery they aren’t the good person they wish they were, that we thought they were. At some point, I suspect some don’t even care about that anymore.

    We strive so hard to understand them but I beginning to see that I can’t ever fully grasp how my SA thinks or feels. He’s not built like me emotionally. He hasn’t developed – he’s like a mutated cell – parts are normal, parts are not.

  60. Pam, I am so sorry for your situation. I would have a hard time dealing with the anger he showing. The effect on your daughter I am sure, is what weighs heaviest for you.

    Sharron, your post makes me realize we may need the therapy longer term that I was thinking.

    Reading all of these posts makes me feel very unsure of what I am believeing from my SA. My SA acted out (exhibitionism) last week for the first time in 10 years. That is the only SA habit he has I am pretty sure.
    I used to really police him 10 years ago and found it to be exhausting. My therapist and his at the time told me that wasn’t my role and that lets my husband view me as parent and not a partner. so I stopped (and relaxed a bit because there were no hints at acting out) and figured if he acted out I would just leave.

    In short, I think he has been clean for 10 years but am I just in a fog…realizing I may never know that.
    He voluntarily found a couseling program and went last night. They sound sggressive and want a one to two year commitment…this therapist is serious…this morning my SA started to wonder if this was truly for him or should he just find an individ couselor. (Some of the people in this group are court ordered). He wonders if he is in denial. I wonder if I am in a bit of denial too. I don’t want him hanging with other SA’s who have issues that are even scarier to me. So I wondering if it is denial about who he really is or is he over confident or am I just an a**.

  61. hello all,

    it is a new day. had separation disuccion with SA. got real answers. He is not ready to commit to getting better. wants his freedom. wants to be well, be the man I want him to be, but said he is not ready. We covered everything from house, to money, my apt, custody of daughter. getting papers drawn up. No more anger, crazy behavior. No more checking. I am 41, (look damn good by the way if I may say) but regret not having more children by this point because of all marital issues. In that there is sadness.

    In trying to be a grown up, apart from the addiction issue and its many destructive forces, I think I have some failings in the relationship as well. My own past and issues playing part in this, I need to look at too. How I want a chance at a healthy relationship!! so unclear, in all of our SA’s blaming, what is really my responsibility to own, what is their crap. I hope once I move out, I will get clarity and be a better lover (God willing!)better mother. Better person.
    Gimme a big high five ladies!!! this one’s for real!!! your posts have assisted me so much in my decision making. You have give me years of life, that I would other wise waste. How can I tell you—-group hug please.

  62. Group Hug? You deserve a big group smooch, high fives and drinks on me!

    Congratulations!

    I know it is a bittersweet victory, etched with the salt of your tears. But you are one of the lucky ones. He was honest (well, as honest as a SA can be). At least he had the decency to not continue to drag you down into his darkness.

    There will be difficult days ahead, but just remember, we are here for you.

    BIG HUGS!

    JoAnn

  63. Sorry to be jumping in so late about the snooping bit..but since i set it off let me add my two bit.

    I was seriously and genuinely in love with my SA.I always sensed something was amiss and i begged pleaded cajoled him to tell me the truth, about his divorce, about his emotional distancing etc.He reassured me i was being suspicious and insecure and professed his undying love for me and told me he wanted to marry me since “i dont know how to live without you”.

    His actions didnt match his words..the red flags were getting bigger and it reached a stage , where, i could only see “red” all the time.

    Ergo,my hacking his mailbox.

    I found his divorce story to be a complete fabrication, tons of fone numbers and pics of a lady.

    I asked him for the truth,The fibs that he told wouldn’t do justice to a 5 year old.Yes i could have walked at that time.
    But i had invested too much in this relationship, i was genuinely in love and respected and idealised him.I knew if i walked out then without knowing the complete truth i would be setting myself up for a tryst with a “revolving door”..going round and round..in and out..without a real and clean exit.

    “The truth shall set you free”.

    I believe in this and i knew truth would be my attack and my defense..attack so that he would let me go ..defence so that i wouldn’t ever go back.

    I snooped, iinvestigated i hacked my way through his crazy world.Every new discovery felt as if i had cut off one more rope that was enshackling me to him.Every new woman i found strengthened my belief that i was just a part of a harem.
    Every new perversion i found made me understand that i was the “normal” in his world.He fed off my goodness.I was his fix , his nourishment, his security ,his pretence to himself that he was not all that bad.I was his validation.

    The truth gave me courage to walk out and the truth will deter me from going back.

    The truth has armored me against his pleadings and sobbings and his emotional blackmail.

    The months that i spent with him as i was investigating were sheer hell.I do miss him..i remember the great times we have had, but i also remember the sheer agony and insecurity and the constant uncertainty of being with him once i found out his true self.The 24 hour torture of wondering what he is upto at this very moment and the constant need to snoop to find out whats he doing.

    Not one of us here or anywhere deserve to live like this.If i have to deal with one woman in his life i can handle it but how does one deal with the danger emanating from one half of the world’s population??(he is 50..the women he has had sex with range from a 24 year old to a 55 year old..spread all over the world)And to top that how does one fight and defend onself from attacks by bloody pixels on a computer screen?

    The truth helped me to walk away from the world that is his and it will help me to stay in a world that is mine.

    Since this was the first and only time he was outed out i yet had a teeny weeny hope that he would change for the better.Though i had no intention of ever being with him(maybe i am not so strong enough to put up with the sheer torture of living with a liar and a cheater)i yet had to know.

    I did my last bit of snooping and i found out in a week of my walking out he was merrily texting his online pickups and in 20 days he was visiting hookers.

    THis truth is my sword and my shield..sword in case he tries to reconnect and shield in case i want to reconnect.

  64. Pam,
    It sounds like you are lucky that your SA had the ability and decency to be honest with you. You are still very young!! High five to you!

  65. Thank you Mayam. Even so, still so angry. Even if he’s honest, how can a man give up his wife and family for some selfish, narcissistic habit at best? I will never understand it, ever, nor do I want to. while I am glad to have a decision and answer, feel like I’m going to be see angry mean spinster if I am not careful. the damage is enormous. This crap makes me feel unloveable, unsexy. and it shouldn’t!!! thanks for love and support.

    Mayam– are you still married or have you chosen to seperate?

  66. Pam. You are an inspiration to me. I truly mean that. Way to know what you need and follow through. Something your SA seems like he will never understand! Strength is the most beautiful thing we can offer sometimes. You give me courage to do whatever I decide is necessary. I still haven’t decided…
    I am going to have a stiff drink and raise my glass to you. Here’s to new life at 41. May it be the one you truly deserve.

  67. Thank you Elise, and I empathize with your pain. Newborn baby and all. It should be such a beautiful time for you, being a new mother is stressful enough. Have a drink, flirt and feel good. I think that what the dr. ordered. Be thankful, thankful, you are so young, and have many opportunities ahead of you. — If I were younger, and had more time to throw at this, I might not be so decisive. We’ll see what happens, it is still a tremendous loss to me. But I hope I will have much more to gain in my future.

  68. Dear All,

    I am once again on the roller coaster. After drawing up separation papers, and beginning to move out, I backed out. Cracked, he did too, but I think in a good way. I have decided to give him a chance, our marriage a chance, and myself a chance to heal while under the same roof, as long as certain conditions are being met (his committment to 12 step is one of the conditions). Perhaps reality check of me moving out / legal sep. was helpful? dunno. I am just trusting my gut on this one, nothing more, and for now it feels right for me. He has asked for my love and support while he begins recovery. I told him that I will not live with an active/functioning addict not serious about their own recovery, doing the work, etc. and it is a long road ahead. He said he gets it, and wants to change for himself and daughter, and has enrolled in a local SA program plus continued therapy he has already started. I know it sounds corny, but honestly, I see a man in my SA that wants to get well, I can see that man for the first time! something feels “new”. I know their sincerity can change day to day, minute to minute. But in this short life, I feel I have hope and joy at this very moment, I cannot say about the next. I hope the man I am seeing reaching out for help for the first time stays on board, and we with work and dediciation, we find our way to a healthy, trusting relationship.

  69. Pam,
    It sounds like he has made some steps in the right direction. You are doing a good job at listening to yourself. A lot has happened to you and in such a short period of time. I don’t think it is such a bad idea to take a little break and breath. Pay attention to how this works. Definately read JoAnn’s book on recovery. IT is very helpfull. You can look for the signs and see where he is at. But definatly take everything he says with a grain of salt. Prepare for the future, even though the papers were not signed keep and eye out for Number 1, which is you.

    Be carefull not to get dragged into his recovery either. That’s his battle, not yours to wage.

  70. comments on the good ol boys club. recently I invited a friend (a trusted male friend) I might add, who is an insurance broker to come over and do the application for my husband and daughter’s health insurance-we needed a better one. I had just learned of my husband’s addiction and i was overwhelmed with grief. this friend knew about my husband’s infideltity (I confided in him out of desperation), but I never mentioned the word addiction or same sex or anything too revealing. I came home later that night because I did not want to even be in the same room as my spouse at that point. Keep in mind, when he came out about addiction, my sa told me he had not contracted any STD’s during our marriage. I knew he had chlymidia as young man about 23, far earlier than we had met and it was treated and done with. I knew he would have to put that on the application and was ok with that.

    Spouse left to go to meeting, and I was alone with friend and another broker as they finished Sa’s application. I heard the words “STD” and “about 1 year ago”. then they left.

    so here is how it goes, wife overhears something crucial to health. Flipped out, wife calls husband, who denies blah blah. Wife’s gut tells her that Husband would call wife’s “friend” and reminds him of boys club, and that I should not know about his history under any circumstances to protect me. No one tells wifey anything except the std 20 yrs ago. and it is left at that

    copy of policy came in the mail 2 weeks later. copy of SA’s application enclosed. he was too stupid to check. There it sat — gonnoreah as of july 2009, 1 year ago. gut confirmed. copies made and put in draw in case I need it in court. dumb ass men. Proof in the pudding.

    confronted SA. Who said, I was so distraught at that point he thought it better to lie. he said I knew what I needed to know, at that point in time he had a clean bill of health (true- saw test results) and so did I. did not want me to know or get hurt anymore so he corrupted someone I thought was my friend and now they share his dirty little secret together. Friend does not know that I know the truth.

    Keep in mind, don’t know what to think of “friend” either. It is illegal to reveal someone’s medical history even to spouse and they can lose a license. Why would husband agree to do health app with friend of mine, knowing he would have to reveal something like that? Sa could have said, hey wife, I am going to use my own broker, whatever, I wouldn’t have cared! only used friend because I know he does a good job and wanted to refer biz. Had no idea of STD history. Why would SA put us all in such awkward position? Risk his marriage even more?

    Keep in mind this was 4 mos ago, and since then, we are trying to reconcile and and he has started 12 step and therapy, swears that that was the last of the lies (yet another lie saying that?) But this recovery period, it is VERY new, and I can’t trust a word out of his mouth still. working on transparacny, healthy checking, etc. Their corrupt nasty lives overflow everyowhere, even to my friends and business contacts whom I have had a great relationship and high regard until this point. disgusting. still going through the pains. is anyone honest?

  71. Filed restraining order. Have been intimidated because he is tight with sheriff. Left 2 years ago due to anger/SA.
    Couple weeks ago-His anger came out of no where-hit me on forehead with palm of his hand-knocked me out. Didn’t file order. In Prosecuting Attorney’s hands.
    Do not know if he has been physically unfaithful. Churchy, goody-goody, charmer, good ole boy.
    Love of my life-in live with him-Got to Walk Away!
    No income right now-just got to keep going.
    Two weeks later-I am sleeping-(we live seperate-2 years)-he uses his key and came into my house-my bedroom-to ask about $40-He has been counseled-I am recovering from relationship trauma/PTSD-Do Not Do This!!!

    (He thinks it is funny-along with his sarcasm and emotional, mental abuse- just me being too sensitive as well-Had to look up to see if what I felt had legitimate basis-and it does.)

    All I heard was Man’s voice-Screamed and jerked awake so hard I pulled muscles-felt like I had been in car wreck.

    I have lost my relationship with my son by marriage AND my own daughter and her family. Cannot explain MY SIDE of our story-won’t. He claims he has a Hair-trigger temper-YET, he manages to hit me with out a mark. This time-He had to take me to ER.

    The saddest, grief-for what I though we had-hardest part-feel like I can nover TRUST ME again.

  72. Dear Soul in the sun,
    It all sounds just rotten—stinking rotten.

    I know how it feels when you get so shaky you aren’t sure you can trust even your own self anymore. But I also know we can rebuild trust in ourselves by taking steps that are trustworthy. Maybe it’s time to connect with a women’s shelter, or a program for victims of domestic violence. The staff are trained to help women deal with their lives after this kind of experience. We have to begin somewhere with one trustworthy step. Even if the result isn’t perfect, it’s the direction we establish with that first trustworthy step that makes the difference. And I found every time I took a step—if it didn’t lead where I hoped, there was someone to help me take the next step that got me closer.

    The goal of an abuser is to take away any security you have—including the security of your own self. But it doesn’t take huge things to get that back. Just start somewhere.

    I wish I could wave my magic wand for you, but I will send you lots of light for strength and courage.
    Diane.

  73. I applaud (and envy) you for your ability to state and adhere to such clear cut boundaries. I wish I had done that a long time ago. I am sure my response would have been similar to yours, but it would have saved many more years of heartache, pain and struggle and it would have saved more of my soul than I am left with now. It is never easy to have to accept such unaccountability and refusal to change. Never easy to leave, but go and don’t look back. You will be glad later!

  74. A couple of more things to add, both for Pam and for “checkers”

    Pam: I finally divorced just last May. It took a year from when I actually filed to finally push it through. And I had to be the one. He has a girlfriend and is actively seeking others. All of this was revealed to me little by little. Each time he asked for a chance, instead of jumping on it, I asked for time (something I have never done before) and each time my therapist told me to watch for actions, not words. His actions never backed his words. Not living with him ( and a lot of help from God) helped me to see this difference. He literally would ask me for reconciliation (without offering anything in the way of recovery), then spend the night with his girlfriend, then be on Match.com the next day. Still it was so hard to not bite on his bait. It was what I wanted! A together, healthy, wholesome family. He couldn’t provide that despite the fact that he asked for it. I believe my desire for this was so great that as soon as he felt me slipping away he would say just the right thing to keep me on the hook. It was emotional torture. Up until the day we went to final mediation I wanted so badly to believe he wanted what he was saying, but never saw the actions. It took all the courage I had to go through with the divorce. In fact, I left the door open and said “If you want to get back together, then court me! Prove to me!” His answer to that attempt was showing up with his girlfriend to my son’s game two days later. There was my answer. The stuckness can be best summed up like this “The only thing harder than leaving is staying, the only thing more impossible than staying is leaving”.

    for the checkers:
    my therapist told me that we check because we want so desperately to prove to ourselves that he is “that” guy, that only we know he is, not the facade that he has put on for everyone around us. We want the proof that we are not crazy! Even when we get proof, we want more because they never own their actions, even when faced with solid proof! I still check, 4 months after divorce was final. I am getting better as his actions have become more public. It is such a relief!

    1. Say to thyself: “Today I am moving on with my life.” Good job following through with the divorce. I am in YOUR BOAT. I quit checking awhile ago. ACTIONS-Read “The Road Less Traveled”. In fact, I shall read it again myself. I haven’t read it since I was 17 and now I am 40.
      My take on the book: Love is ACTION whether we feel like doing it or not and especially so when we take good action, with a no guilt trips on others when we don’t feel like it. EVERY good parent instinctively DOES it already!

      Best wishes and Much Love-You derserve to be happy joyous and free!

  75. Kari – You couldn’t have said it better – “The only thing harder than leaving is staying, the only thing more impossible than staying is leaving”. I truly feel the only thing the the checking does is to make us feel better. Obviously, it doesn’t promote change in the SA – In my case, only made him more angry when I would catch him, and the lies became more frequent. The passive-aggressive behavior really kicked in. ie: He was not supposed to be looking at women on the computer, but if I would later call his attention to it, he would actually go to the site again, right in front of me, and then deny he saw the women on the side of the screen.(An example would be girls in bikini’s to the side of the screen for an advertisement), and he would say he couldn’t tell anything about them. They really work at insulting our intelligence!!
    My advice is still run as fast as you can and don’t look back. My husband, who is attending an Intensive Out-patient
    treatment center in two weeks, disclosed that he went to a “Big Beautiful Women”(BBW) site last week. Real motivation for change, right??? His therapist told me that of these men who attend these things, 85% of all of them come back and relapse into their old behavior. These guys, for the most part, do not change!!! Maybe, on a rare occasion like JoAnn’s husband. He is the exception.

  76. Dear Kari,

    Thanks for your post. I feel I am walking in identical shoes. I have come to the sad realization that that his Actions not anywhere near equaling the words. And yes, it is such torture. With all our hearts, as mothers, wives, or just a human being, we want healthy happy families. Then comes the right lines to lure us, then back to bad behavior. Mine has promised recovery, therapist, money controls. He has now been replaced acting out with substance abuse. In 1 week, he has completely drunk 4 times, used cocaine once, and popped a valium after drinking after coming home well after dinner last night (supposed to watch scary movies and a family dinner at home). Plus this is after calling me at 4pm in the afternoon, and telling me he wants me to set boundaries and will adhere to whatever is going to make me feel safe. It is so illogical, so unhealthy, it completely blows my mind. Let’s say I give the benefit of doubt, that he has not acted out–he is certainly self medicating and not on board dealing with his issues. All at the expense, of me, our daughter our hopes and dreams.
    Met with counsel on Saturday. I am shopping attorneys and options before I make a “planned exit.”
    Kari – did you leave your home? I think my SA should be the one to leave, and make up the financial shortfall so we can keep the home we just bought a year ago. He said he will fight. I do not have the money or resources. my entire family is on east coast. Or, I take the lesser road and move out. But I don’t feel safe having him in that house by himself, no supervision, like a child. And, being alone w/my daughter if he is substance abusing. I don’t know how I am going to get him out. Any advice here?

  77. I was in that situation, and I filed for divorce when he kept doing everything he was not supposed to.
    Depending on your state, there are grounds for divorce. In my state there are three: 1. Adultery 2. Abandonment 3. Cruelty.
    My divorce had all three grounds, but you just need one to file. We used abandonment to begin with because he would leave overnight, for days and we would not know where he was, then would pop back in. In my state, gone overnight one night is abandonment.
    Or use adultery if you have proof.
    If you are serious about get better or it is divorce (I sure was) then if you have grounds and he does not leave on his own, the sheriff will remove him (again, this is in my state).
    I filed because I had no choice, he had to get help and stop, or we had to end. We ended.
    I was in the house for a year and a half in the divorce process hoping he would straighten up, come home and get help. He never did, I could not afford our huge house and acres by myself, and had to buy my own smaller home. When I moved out, he moved back in as he could afford it ( he made 4 times what I made). It sucks, I had cleared the land and built our house, it was my dream for many years and my house plans…..but I figure I will just do it again, hopefully even better the next time.
    If your name is on the mortgage, try and stay in the house and then check with banks to make sure you can qualify for the mortgage just in your name. Make sure child support is court ordered first of all, because without the court order you most likely will not be approved for the mortgage unless you make a lot of money on your own. They generally go with 25% of your income should be able to cover the mortgage.

  78. Hi Pam,

    Just a few words on your house and leaving vs. staying in the house.

    First, find a good attorney–if you like what you hear (please–I speak from experience, find one who is aggressive–wishey washy will lose you everything) hire him. If you cannot pay your husband will have to pay–and the attorney will take care of that.

    Most states allow the custodial parent to stay in the family home. Your attorney will work out the details for your husband to leave (even if it takes the police, but it doesn’t usually come to that). Your husband will also have to cough up enough money to allow you to stay in the home. If finances just don’t allow that, you at least will get to stay there until the house is sold.

    During the divorce proceedings your husband will have to pay you maintenance and child support. If you want to go back to school so that you can find a good job, he will most likely have to pay for that too.

    You do not have to figure out all those details yourself, your attorney will do it for you, that’s what you hire them for. Your husband can fight it all he wants, but the law is on your side.

    Do not move out. Once you do you will not be able to move back. You stay where you are and follow your attorney’s advice. If you can prove that your husband is abusing drugs or alcohol be sure to bring that up to the attorney. Under those circumstances your husband will only be allowed supervised visits.

    Do not risk your future and your daughter’s safety. Get a good attorney.

    Good luck, keep us posted on how things go.

    Hugs to you,

    JoAnn

  79. Lynn,

    I don’t know what state you live in, but ALL 50 states have no fault divorce, which means you do not have to state a reason for wanting the divorce and your spouse cannot stop the divorce if you file.

  80. Thank you both. Seriously, why am I approaching this in a “collaborative” divorce, mediation, or outcome: uncontested manner? How can I expect “reasonable” behavior from this man? I can’t. I mean depending on the day and all, he might actually sign something if I am crafty and covert about it, possibly meeting with a mediator when he is humble and sober, he just may say, yes I go you stay. It is only fair. While I believe that is best if both parties can “agree”, to keep court costs down and well being of children, if someone is unreasonable and even a hazard to health of family, THEY need to go. but I, need more proof. I have proof of adultery. I am in community property state, no fault divorce. However, courts look at “proof” I am told. thanks for solid advice.

  81. Gather any proof you can, it will be vital if he fights you for custody, but it really won’t make any difference in the divorce. No fault means just that and if it does go to court the judge will not even allow any evidence of misconduct as it has nothing to do with granting the divorce or the settlement. It’s all cut and dried based on formulas.

  82. So many sad stories, and it seems like it is always the women of the SA who pay such a high price!
    Pam, if you do not live in a no-fault state, then do what you have to do to get proof. Hire a private detective, (I had an excellent one, and he only charged $60.00hr.) put in a spy camera, or get a small voice-activated recorder.
    Anything to prove his behavior! Don’t leave your’e house. He is the one that has destroyed this marriage, and you need to make sure you and your’e daughter are taken care of.

  83. SA’s have a lot of guilt over their behavior, so you are right – just maybe you can catch him in a cooperative mood when he is not on drugs or ETOH.
    My SA is signing a pos-nup agreeing to pay my car off, pay vision and dental insurance, as well as long-term care insurance for life.
    My husband is still helping me financially, but am sure that will come to a screaming halt if he cannot live up to the boundary of no lieing, and I file for divorce.

  84. thanks all for your insight and experience. This woman is getting smarter by the moment, and with much appreciation to all of you for sharing what you have been through. The advice: priceless.

    But Guess what? Big picture. He’s already lost, even if he wins the house. Even if there is shared custody, he has lost all that is important in life, truly important, that is. I am so glad that I have stayed in my situation until now, and could assess where his claim to “recovery” was at. This website community has sped up my learning curve in quantum leaps. I found out 5 mos ago. Look where I am now? ABLE TO MAKE TOUGH DECISIONS AND ASSESS BEHAVIOR RIGHTLY. I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO SO IF WERENT FOR ALL OF YOU. It gives me comfort to know, I gave opportunity for change and was flat out denied by behavior, not words. While the denial of his behavior really hurts, and that he just won’t change, not even for me, our life or our daughter, at least I know. At the end of the day, people should be able to live the lives they want to lead. If sex whores and drugs is how he wants to live it, have your “full sexual menu.” I am sure some more drama will enfold in the coming months, attempts to get back together etc., and I may get tempted to “believe”. But reading behavior will alway bring me back on track, to the truth about someone’s life and whether or not they should be allowed in mine. πŸ™‚ I will keep you posted.

  85. In my state, if you have grounds you can force them out of the house (sheriff)and the grounds also give spousal support. After I filed, with grounds and he was served, he still was at home but doing the same stuff and leaving for days at a time, but we came home and all his stuff was gone one day. I had filed a few months prior but told him I would stop the divorce if he would get help. He never did. So he would have eventually been escorted out by the sheriff. Plus, because of the grounds, my ex had supervised visitation and has to go to therapy per court order(he isn’t).
    I tried the lawyer agreements that were not court ordered, where the lawyers just did gentlemen agreements with follow up letters…….did not work. He did not follow a one. Took a long time to get child support ordered too, and as soon as it was I set up to have the state collect it (thank goodness!). Shoot, even the court orders are not working with my ex, have to keep going back for show causes.
    But for sure get a lawyer who is aggressive…..chances/sympathy/trust don’t work when you get to this sort of stage….and be really careful and get a QDRO!

  86. Hurray Pam!!! You are really getting it altogether. Like I said before, sometimes you just have to get your “belly full” before you can make that final decision, and if it took staying with him a little longer – so be it. And, sometimes, it takes us awhile to consistently look at the behavior and not what they say.
    It does hurt, and is sometiems inconceivable how an SA can give up everything important to them, but they do it all the time. That certainly re-inforces how sick they really are.

    You will have some tough times ahead. We want so much to believe them, and I really think what screwed me up the most was the “partial truths.” You feel like they are making progress when they tell you “I didn’t do anything today, but neglect to tell what they did the day before- and then you catch them in the lie.
    Hang in there and be strong – I think you have jumped the biggest hurdle!
    I, too, have felt so fortunate to have you all in my corner when I am having a bad day, needed validation, or just needed to vent. It has been a God Send. I feel very close to you all, even though we have never met.

  87. Today is such a sad day. I am reminded of all the lies and cons and manipulations that have happened to me from the get go of this marriage. While we are sorting out living arrangements (who goes where) and legal division, he has announced that he will travel to Brazil at the end of the month. That he just can’t commit to a real recovery right now. It is the ultimate betrayal. Doesn’t want to lose me, doesn’t want to change or work on behavior. devastated. I mean I got 2 weeks of some kind of change I thought real, and then wham, all back on full force. It is basically announcing he is going to cheat, go do it, then come back and expect me to be here. Keeps trying to spin it- i just like to travel, i want you to come with me (i am visiting my father same time he leaves, how timely). I control the money? ha. i never approved this trip. all a joke. I feel hopeless, like I am going to be alone forever, and that I have lost the battle for my marriage, my home and my husband’s soul, if you will. I know I still have mine, but it is so damaged. i feel like every step I take to build a seperate new life he is going to try to hurt, for the rest of my life. my support system is 3000 miles away. it is so hard to battle on my own. today, i feel i have fallen far, on the road to progress. Yes, I know leaving is the right thing to do. but it is devastating painful and sad. btw, not moving anywhere until some more legal details are worked out, advised by attorney, if i want the house. so i am trying to live seperate in my own bedroom, for some sanity

  88. Pam – I am so sorry you are having a rough time. Unfortunately, you will until you get this “sick” guy out of your life. At least there is some closure, in that you know your husband doessn’t want to change or work on recovery, so you have nothing to work with. This guy isn’t worth it! Talk about “have his cake and eat it too. Isn’t that typical with an SA – You saw two weeks of what you thought was some kind of change, and then he throws all of this shit on you. He is obviously comfortable in his own little world of perversion. The typical roller-coaster ride of ups and downs. Just feel relieved that at least now you have your answer.
    One of the things you said was “I feel hopeless, like I am going to be alone forever, and have lost my husband’s soul.” You have to realize you never had his soul – he has never been capable of giving it, nor will he ever. As far as being alone forever- haven’t you really been alone throughout this entire marriage? And, isn’t it better to be alone and happy then to be with him and miserable 24/7. I would much rather be by myself and lonely, than be with someone who makes me miserable.
    My husband is in L.A. and told me he triggered on a gal in his SA meeting. Here he is in an IOP treatment center, and he triggers! You would think if he is there to work on recovery, would really be focusing and working hard not to trigger. He will never change, and neither will your’e husband. We just have to accept it and go on. Yes, there is pain, but I feel a lot less pain than when I was living with him 24/7. You will feel such a weight lifted once you are away from him totally, and if you are like I am will feel much happier when you are not with him than when you are.
    I know you are really hurting and cannot see it now, but there are better days ahead. You feel like he will always be there trying to hurt you, but once this is all over your only option is to make a clean break and never look back!!
    He can only hurt you if you continue to let him do so.
    It sounds like you need to find a really good support system
    close by you, and are you still seeing a therapist?
    Sometimes, I wish we could all talk in person. I think when we are really hurting, like you are today, it would really help to communicate by phone. I am open to that. Anyone else?
    Pam – purk up, and at the risk of sounding a little corny, turn your’e life over to God and pray for him to give you the strength to get through this – I promise he will do that.

  89. It would be really great if we could arrange tele-meetings like some of the SA programs have. I know you can use skype without the camera for just a call, or conference call lines. I would be interested in doing this. Would we need to have some kind of format, like a topic of discussion?

    Pam, did you say you were in Southern California? I am in Northern California (SF Bay area) so we’re in the same time zone. I could definitely make myself available if you need to talk.

  90. Dear Sharron,

    thanks for your encouraging words and view– they help ALOT. Yes, sometimes it would be nice to chat by phone when we are in doldrums of despair, I am open to that as well. And you do not sound corny, I think at this point God is the only one who can bring me through and give me joy again. He uses so many people, this website, even strangers sometimes to bring hope and kindness. I feel less hurt today, and encouraged to stay the course of starting a new life for me, and my daughter-your words have truly helped. I know this will not be easy, but I want to taste happiness again. And, thank you for pointing out — yes I have been alone in this marriage, in fact, there never really a “real” marriage, with all of his secret life going on. It was fraudulent.

    I am sad to hear you husband’s triggering experience in the program. Sharron, I sometimes wonder if total honesty is really what we want? I don’t think I can handle knowing every trigger and nasty thought that runs through their sick minds, nor do I want to. I mean is it really helpful to know what they think about or trigger on? I wonder. I think only you will know if he is going through the motions to not lose you, or if he is serious. The behavior will speak for itself, in fact it speaks volumes about where they are really at. Look at mine – brazil? please. it is the ultimate voice to weigh everything against. Actions are the only thing we can really be “sure” of. Everything else is just words or promises. They can sit in recovery think tank all day long, but unless there is a shift, a desire to stay the course w/accountability, with proven behavior, how can we ever heal? we can’t. Thank you for caring and encouraging in a difficult time. Please, keep me posted about your SA’s progress, or not, in his visit to L.A. (my home town by the way).

  91. Hi Again Pam-
    Knowing my husband’s triggers are a must for me, because he knows one more lie and it is divorce time. I can usually pick up on a lie when he is into his full- blown addiction, because he will tell the truth about one of the things he does and leave the pertinent one out. And, like so many of us, The lieing bothers me more than the addiction.
    Since you live in L.A. – Do you know anything about the Sexual Recovery Institute? Do they have a good reputation?
    Steve tells me it is “very intense.”
    I live in Kansas. It would really be cool if we can figure out a way to talk. Maybe JoAnn can allow us to exchange phone numbers via our own personal Emails. How about it JoAnn?

  92. Hi Jessie,

    I just wanted to let you know that I have been researching ways to have live conferences or meetings online. The software is quite expensive and many programs require a monthly fee in addition to the software.

    Another woman on this site asked about setting up local live meetings or support groups. I have had many requests to do that but I am only one person and can only be in one place at at time.

    So, I am working on putting together a support group outline plan. From my own experience in health care and from organizing and running these types of meetings and support groups, I can tell all of you that without structure,leadership and a clear purpose these meetings will quickly deteriorate and not be useful.

    I will do a post soon on my ideas and ask for input from all of you.

    Just know that I am here for you and will do all that I can to bring you together in a sharing place.

    Love to all,

    JoAnn

  93. Hi sharron,

    I have put many people in contact with each other. All you have to do is e-mail me at [email protected] and tell me who you want to be in touch with. I will forward your e-mail to them, with all of your information and then it is up to them to contact you if they wish.

    No problem, I’m happy to do it.

    JoAnn

  94. Pam,
    I’m so sorry for what you are going through. When I moved out I viewed it as moving to “my happy house” and that my moving represented the first day of the rest of my life. Of course at that time I had not linked our problems to his sex addiction…I didn’t even know he was an SA at that time. I’d only caught him with one woman and discovered a couple of more he’d been texting via his cell phone. It wasn’t until I found another Craigslist posting after I moved out that things started to “stink”… One thing I have been thankful for is that by the time I found out what had really been going on I was out and not living with him any more. In more ways than one it’s been a god send. I feel better equipped to deal with the continue blows and being slammed emotionally into a wall by living separate from him right now. My little house has become my “safe place”…a place that is all mine and I don’t know where I’d be without it right now. It did and does bring on a whole other set of issues and concerns down the road but for now I feel I would be worse if I had to be sharing the same roof with him.

    I know the feeling of him “putting treatment on hold”…its like they expect you to put your life on hold while they decide whether or not you are a priority….For me I was never a priority and still wonder if I truly ever will be. I was married to a non recovering alcoholic 7 years, together for like 13 or 14 total. One thing I learned after 4 times through rehab with him celebrating his graduation with a 6 pack of bottled water emptied and re-filled with vodka, that after awhile they have the system down pat and know all the right things to say suggesting they are in recovery. When my Alcoholic ex went in for 30 days inpatient they called me a week into it wanting to throw him out because he was an expert at saying all the right things. I’ll never forget sadly and find myself now comparing that to my SA who I’m afraid will get to the same point if he’s not already. The bad part about not living together is I’m not there to see what he’s doing and he can easily do whatever he wants when he wants with whom it wants and I’ll never know. Like words, they can get just as rehearsed with actions as well. I think it all boils down to can one really ever believe their SA again, regardless? They’ve been so good at lying all these years why couldn’t they get good at convincing us they are recovering too…..

    Sharon, I’m with you on the triggers. And I’m finding out that he’s not being so truthful on that…he’s too inconsistent. I want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I can’t imagine trying to rebuild anything on skeleton’s still in the closet. Further, my mind can create a bigger monster if left on it’s own accord, so in as much as the truth hurts, the unknown hurts me more. It all sucks plain and simple…I’m going to have pictures in my mind regardless of what he tells me.

    Hang in there, my thoughts are all happy ones for you.

    Mary

  95. Mary-
    It really doesn’t matter if you are with them or not. My SA
    admitted that I only caught him 50% of the time. My mind was thinking just like you a couple of months ago. I moved out because of the lieing, and told him I don’t want to see him or talk to him as long as it continues. I didn’t want him to come over, spend time with me, and then go home and do what he wants and when he wants to do it. It is really easy to get hooked into “If I am with him, I will find out more.”
    As you said, they are so proficient at knowing the right thing to do and what to say. The old saying “once a lier is always a lier,” is, in my opinion, right on. These guys very rarely change – I see that more and more everytime I come to this site.
    Don’t worry, they always catch themselves up! I call it “The Fickle Finger of Fate.”
    My thoughts amd prayers are with you.

  96. Sharron,

    I didn’t move out because of his lying. I moved out because I caught him with another woman. I didn’t know anything about his sex addiction at that time. I had been wanting to leave for a very long time anyway but when I found him with another woman, that was it…money or not, job or not, poor or not, I was out. I didn’t find out about his true identity until 3 1/2 months later when he had kept begging me for a second chance, promising fidelity and honesty and integrity. Then I found another craigslist ad during that time and that’s when shit hit the fan. But I moved out for him cheating with me with ONE woman period. My only reason for being happy about living apart and maybe I didn’t articulate that right, was when I did find out, when more and more lies surfaced June, July and August I was all the more happy that I lived away from him where I had a safe place to be, a safe place away from him. I couldn’t have endured living with him while all this crap was coming out. It’s been bad enough living alone, but at least I have felt somewhat safe and knew he wasn’t in the other room. And I find even as of today when more crap spews out that I can throw him out and have my “safe place” again to myself. If I lived with him I wouldn’t have that. Call it a boundary if you want, but my house, my little “pad” is MINE and he can’t come here unless I let him. It is my space and mine only.

    He offered up some explanation today for an hour long phone call on the cell phone bill that I guess happened this week. My response was I haven’t even checked the bills. I know all too well if he’s going to relapse, slip up, act out, what ever you want to call his sleezy life, he’s going to go elsewhere and to places that aren’t being monitored to do so. Why waste my time and my energy. I in as much told him so….he didn’t like that response.

    Sadly my point is that even sometimes when they act like they are in recovery that it isn’t any more than getting older wiser and better at the lying and hiding. I said that in response to a comment about one can only believe their actions over time, not their words. I found with my alcoholic ex that his actions got as good as his lies and recovery never happened ever…regardless of the treatment programs or inpatient hospitals he went to.

    Warmly

    Mary

  97. To Sharron again,

    I re read your last post because I was confused by your initial comment. The fact is he turned our home into a sex palace. We had a beautiful condo on the bay tricked out to the max…open bath concept in the master meaning the bathroom and bedroom were one room, no walls in between. It holds a huge jacuzzi tub. The other bathroom has a two person dual head sport shower all ceramic tile…hand held units, the whole nine yards. A beautiful view overlooking the chesapeake bay. When I was writing my last post prior I was referring to my statement of not knowing vs knowing because after I moved out he started taking baths in our jacuzzi tub masturbating all the time. He answered craigslist ads offering to photograph women in the shower and the front of the condo with the beach and water in the background. The hooker he brought to my former home in June he’d wanted to play with him in the hottub but supposedly she refused so he settled for a BJ instead…ugh….disgusting, revolting I tell you…so my point in not being there vs being there is if I were, he’d not be doing ANY of that in my home…with me not there he could still be doing all of those things and more….but sadly he marketed my home as whore house, a place to carry out his lewd and dispicable acts..he used my home as bait to entice his whores describing all it’s attributes, features and benefits in either his personal ads or when he answered an add. Guess he thought it would make them want him more….more uggggggh….puke…(sorry JoAnn)

    The real joke here is he keeps talking about how he’s fixing up the condo so it looks nice when I and my dogs come and visit. I’ve not the courage yet to tell him it will be a cold day in hell before I ever step foot back in that place.

    So my thoughts were on that when I was making that statement in my other post. They can and will do anything any where anytime when they want it. Doesn’t matter where we are, but he would not be degrading my home in the process if I were still living with him.

    Love to all

    Mary

  98. Mary-Thanks for enlightening me. Sometimes it is difficlt to get the full picture when reading it in our mail rather than talking to someone. Sounds like you are doing great job working on your’e own recovery.
    I am with you, in that I feel wonderful in my own “small”
    condo. (And, I walked away from a very nice home and financial future). It takes away all the pain and suffering we have to endure when we are with them. Sounds like we are both in a good place. Thanks for writing.

  99. Jesse — thanks for making yourself available. I will email Joanne my cell/personal email. It might be nice talk.

    Sharron / Mary — it is very encouraging, to know that although you left the house behind (I am wrestling that now) that you have found peace in your own place. I think that outweights everything. I am not even sure if I want to stay in the home anyway– all it represents, those dreams of a life that will not happen. let my SA be reminded every day– of the wife and child that will not be there anymore. while I try to start fresh. no memories around of what was, may be really helpful.

  100. Dear all,

    Would love a reality check, — on this situation. Boy oh boy, is he using every tool known in his manipulating chest in order to keep his patsy (i mean me, his wife) from going anywhere. So far, I have been promised a new diamond, a trip to Provence this year, he finally bought a washer and dryer for me, spa/massage offers, hair done offers, whatever, you get the picture. He is cleaning house before I get home, calls at work – do I need anything?? yes, a faithful husband, know one? All the while, he will be getting on a plane to Brazil this Wednedsday, because he needs a vacation. I am going to have to trust that he will not act out- quote per him, – he IS entitled to travel. etc. Plus he is going to 12 step as soon as he gets back- per him. It is so thick to swallow, I feel like my head is coming off my body, not even kidding. I am swallowing this plate of hooplah until he gets on that plane, and I can see clear, think clear, and really get serious about my plans for future. I fear I will crash, right now surviving on lies, even though some of them may even come from a good place and can feel so good to believe. Even though he is acting like the man I first met, really trying, being really sweet, etc. Someone, set me straight–please. The deceit makes me feel like a schizo, one part of me (old me who didn’t know) who used to believe him on these trips is unaffected. The one that now knows the truth is numb with pain- the numbness will wear off, I am quite sure. Do I make any sense? Anyone been through something like this?
    thank you again all.

  101. Oh Dear Pam,

    I am so sorry you are having to go through this. Being such a newbie to this addiction and life with an SA that is now exposed itself in my life, I don’t have the experience to tell you what to do. I can identify with the pain and what sounds like panic in your voice. The feeling of the bottom of your stomach falling out when you jog between thinking like the person who didn’t used to be affected by his travels and the person you are today as a result of his betrayal. It does make you feel schizo, so rest assured your are NOT crazy. And you have good reason to feel that way. Life does seem like a spinning top as you want to believe good, but the past coupled with thoughts of the present and future combined are enough to drop one to their knees. I am sitting here experiencing similar fears of insecurity. My SA has been quiet this past week and not in ways I feel good about. I smell a rat….not a house mouse, but a rat. My intuition is in a bad place and it’s usually never wrong. It’s a sick and confusing feeling.

    If it were me, I’d take the new diamond, washer and dryer, new “hat”, manicure…I’d take it all…and with a smile, no matter how fake that smile might be. He owes you much more than that even if he does manage to stay respectable and decent. Enjoy it the best you can…take care of yourself….you need to take care of yourself right now. Plan some nights out with friends, plan some time for yourself..pampering time. The unknown will drive us all crazy, its hard I know not to get sucked into their promises.

    Know that you are in my thoughts and prayers

    Love to you…strong lady

    Mary

  102. Mary thank you— it’s so good to know we are not alone. You will be in my thoughts and prayers too. Learning to trust ourselves again, is often difficult. I don’t know about you, but I can honestly say, that even before my SA confessed his problem, I had so many signs and clues, and intuition pointing me into a direction I was told wasn’t true, and did not want to believe to be true, that I would ignore it. I now learn to trust it and with every confirmation, I grow stronger. I am sure this is true for you as well. The sad part is, when we “confirm” what our gut says, often the confirmation is a painful realization that they have let us down again. Perhaps your rat, is just that. He has let you down in someway. Like you said, the unknown… I will enjoy my gifts I guess. Perhaps, you can enjoy some peace and quiet. Thank you for caring. πŸ™‚

  103. Pam,

    I think you know what is really going on here. I think you know these are bribes, I think in his head he is probably thinking, “One last hurrah, then I will get serious about recovery”. And maybe that is true. If so, can you deal with knowing he HAD to do this? What if he comes back and decides to have one more last hurrah? What if it never ends?

    Also, if he were committed to his recovery, he wouldn’t put himself in a compromising situation like this. Or even create the appearance of one. Frankly, does he still have the right to travel alone on vacations to exotic places? Or is that something time and trust should earn back for him?

    That said, I am with Mary – enjoy your “gifts” and start making solid plans while he is gone. Decide what your boundaries are (is it too late for that?) and stick to them, and start laying the foundation for Plan B. Chances are, once he gets back from his trip, he’ll be the same asshole who responded to your sincere letter above the way that he did (once he’s gotten what he wants), should you start laying down some serious boundaries for what you can and cannot live with. A Plan B in case of failed recovery and separation is not only necessary for your possible future, but also for your sanity while you stay with him.

    We are pulling for you.

  104. Pam,

    I think you hit that on the head…that when our gut tells us something and it’s right, the confirmation is painful, it’s a letdown, a disappointment. To make matters worse, for me anyhow is I now get upset when my gut starts feeling that way and that’s becoming more upsetting in and of itself, because I know what’s coming next… and yes, I am finding with every disappointment, my strength is growing with it.. but still I hate being right, right now and when the gut starts, so does the dread. I hate it when he disappoints me because he’s helping me choose my future every time he does. Sadly these days I’m feeling myself concede. At times I think my battles are more with myself than with him because I know what the outcome most likely will be. I think those feelings for me are coming from the same place for you. What we want, what we hope for, what we wish…vs what we know.

    When I moved out last May, part of me felt bad initially that I knew we couldn’t really afford for me to leave, furthered by knowing he would be saddled with all the bills for me after I did leave. However, there was never a choice in my mind about staying once I caught him with another woman…suddenly all the fears that held me back from leaving before were gone….things had been bad for awhile, a long while, and like you all the signs were there, I just couldn’t put my finger on it… our relationship was beginning to deteriorate at warp speed. I was corrected very quickly though by those around me over that “twinge of guilt” for his having to pay 1500.00 a month for a house for me. I was lucky to find a place anyway due to my bad credit, Social Security Disability, unemployed and 5 dogs. Who would rent to me much less sublease through him…I didn’t have many choices..in fact I had none. God however, was there as our realtor/turned good friend of mine rented me her little house fully well knowing my situation inside and out….My friends smacked me upside the head over that “twinge of guilt” and said “honey, after a decade of your life with that piece of @$%#, you deserve more than a lousy 1500.00 a month rented house for a year…..and you know Pam, they were right….Put your “bitch” hat on, get mad, and ENJOY those gifts…Don’t allow yourself to be in the mind frame of how he was before you knew, that’s what’s making you feel bad, because you are a giving person, a loving person…walk with who you are now, today, in the present…..It is so common for us to think this way. We think we are not deserving of better much less deserving of gifts from them. Don’t look at it as a gift but as something you deserve. Men like ours prey on women like us, the ones that are kind and good. The ones who prefer to give rather than receive. These sleazy guys ruin our self esteem and our feeling of self worth….so DON’T let him do that to you…..ENJOY those gifts, and if he buys you a new mercedes…CALL ME! LOL….All of us will hop in for a night on the town!

  105. Pam,

    I am in the middle of reading a book titled “Why Is It Always About You?”…….Author: Sandy Hotchkiss. It is like looking in the mirror for me. Right to the core. Think I’ve highlighted 50% of what I’ve read so far. It is a book about Narcissism and tackles it from the perspectitve of living with a Narcissist.

    I think it would be safe to say here that most of us are living with that in one form or another..A Narcissist…..

    It is helping me see things more clearly in a different light.

    A read I highly recommend for any/all of us that come to share on this web.

  106. Mary and Jessie,

    Thank you both. Jessie – so true, my boundary is being totally crossed. I said clearly, no trips. and now there is a trip. After veering off his 2 week recovery with substance abuse, 4 times 1 week totally drunk, I told him we needed to seperate. So he says, why wait, why not book my trip? See, my fault he is going — that’s what he wants me to think. If I didn’t threaten him with divorce, he would not have booked his trip. what a crock. why am I afraid to enforce my own boundary? why am I afraid to get litigious about this? I mean I have started, but I should be moving more aggressively. But I have warned while he is gone, that I am not sure what plans I will make while he is away. He keeps trying to get me to be :ok with his travel. This guy is essentially walking all over me. How do I gain control back? enforce the boundary. He is going to be such a prick. btw– I am installng spycams while he is away. for real. so the “real him” can be caught. thanks for back up and realism here. much needed. i am in the middle of a snow storm, if you know what I mean.

    Mary– LOL on the Benz. I think I will be wearing my bitch hat well, even if passive aggressively while he is away. much can be done to empower my situation when flying solo in the home. I will use my opportunity to come out in a better position. so sad it has come to this. I am wiser and crafty, I must say. I can smile, say yes dear, and make plan B all at the same time. the execution of it, the hardest.

  107. Pam,

    You go Girlfriend….Yes, sticking by our boundaries and executing them IS the hardest. That is what I’m in the middle of right now and I’m loosing it in the process. I told my SA critical things I expected…slowly over the last week some of those things have diminished. I am working overtime sticking to my guns tonight….Trying to make this time not turn out like all the other times. The “big voice” inside of me tells me I must continue this while all the other little voices are trying to talk me out of it. I think that’s why we feel schizo. They are also sooooo manipulative!! Mine thinks so crazy that he’ll come up with anything other than what he’s supposed to figure out as a consequence. And like your SA… will most likely be along the lines of me being the villain, my fault and him the victim, yet again. Their narcissistic selves can’t handle it any other way. They are SICK Pam. But you can do this and you will….Change is scary and I think we are afraid that the answer or reaction that we really don’t want from them is the one we will get….but we must remember, we will survive.

  108. Pam,

    I wouldn’t advocate this for everybody, but I think in light of him wanting you to be okay with his trip, you shoukd be okay with it – on the outside. Schedule an appointment with an attorney while he is gone, and serve him with papers when he returns.

  109. Dear All

    Thanks for good advice. And yes, that is exactly what I am doing. Already saw attorney for previous issues, was trying to work out coopertive/uncontested situation – in no fault state. I am rethinking ” me being the one to move out.” as part of the uncontested agreement we first talked about. being suckered I thinks. Need him to make up monthly financial shortfall so I can stay in home comfortably w/daughter. He will fight tooth and nail. If I take this route, in for battle. If I move out, I feel I give up home I love, down payment that came from my father, etc. for what? move into an apt let him live lifestyle in my home? I am not the one running around the world ruining my marriage. He is. This takes more planning, more money, and the possibility of him retaliating and being vicious once served and under same roof, no legal remedy to make him move. court battle, etc. Hence, need for spycams. Proof of ahole behavior. I expect when he returns. This “best hubby in the world act” will quickly end once boundaries are again in place. Its a matter of time. How I would love for him to come home to an empty house though!! been legally advised not to move out if I want him to be the one to leave. playing cards smart. I think if I do so, I will come out on top. thank you for routing for me.

  110. Hi All – I am in my own frustration tonight. I E-mailed JoAnn for some advice, but want to hear all of your ideas.
    My husband is still in L.A. and really “pumped up.” they are obviously teaching him so-called “assertiveness Training.”
    He told me yesterday, maybe we should end the relationship, and his counselor told him basically good for you.
    We are at odds on boundaries. Of course my main one is lieing, but the counselor is telling him it is okay for him to watch TV and attend movies. He has even had problems, while at home, with watching Star-Gate Universe. There is absolutely nothing on it, but he found himself starting to
    home in on just the women actors.
    I feel like he should not change any of his habits at home until he is able to develop coping skills and contine with intense therapy. That is my 2nd boundary. Obviosly, his counselor is not in agreement. To me, that is certainly not avoiding triggering situations.
    He is going to call back tonight, so probably will tell him to go to hell!
    Any takes on this approach?
    Sorry, I can’t comment on anyone else tonight, am too consumed with my own frustration. Will do better tomorrow.

  111. Sharon,

    Sorry to hear you are having a tough night. It sounds like a trying situation to say the least. My first question would be have you had a chance to share these thoughts with his counselor? I would think it so very important that the counselor include you in the recomendations, afterall you have to live with him, not them. If they’ve not heard your concerns, if it were me, I’d sure find a way for them to hear mine.

    It would bother me if the counselor we had disguarded my concerns and issues in the first place. The last thing you need is a therapist that plays the two of you. I read all the time where the therapists appear to take sides with the SA. I started to get that vibe from the last ahole we went to, but we made him history before he got too far.

    Seriously, If it were me, I’d be on the phone with somebody where he’s at and raise eyebrows. They may not even know what’s happening with him with regular tv shows, etc. You know how well they tell the truth! Besides…IT’S YOUR LIFE with him…not the therapists. And if he (your sa) doesn’t like your involvement, then too bad. I told my SA just the other night that we weren’t playing by his rules anymore and that I’m calling the shots with regard to what is acceptable recovery practices in order for me to even consider stepping back into a life time with him. I told him this is MY life he fucked up and I wasn’t handing it back over to him just because he said he’d changed.

    I don’t know Sharron, I could be way out of line, but if it were me, I’d be making myself heard to more than just him.

    Good luck

    Mary

  112. Thanks for the reply Mary. His counselor has been in agreement in how he should handle his recovery. She just told him he should get out and socialize more, and not just isolating in the house.
    He is not supposed to be doing anything, other than things that cannot be avoided, to invoke a trigger.
    Steve’s counselor is supposed to call me tomorrow. I intend to give her an ear full in regards to his manipulation techniques. Was still doing it to his own counselor before he left.

  113. Sharron,

    First, my SA watches yesterday’s shows today on his computer monitored by Covenant Eyes. He has no tv service and piggy backs off of any free wi fi he can just to get internet service. As a result, He is reading books related to recovery or self reflective issues when at home more so than tv. After work most week nights, he’s either at an SA meeting, Church Meeting, Life Group or another SAA meeting. On Saturday he goes to another mens’ cell group from my church…a simple bible study etc. This past Saturday they all got together for a 2 mile walk and breakfast.

    My point is….Why does your Hubby need TV or a movie right now in the first place? He can find other ways to socialize without compromising your boundaries or anyone elses.

  114. You really have a good point! I have the feeling his counselor is fostering this “new Steve.” And, of course, he is hearing whatever fits into his agenda.
    Thanks again.

  115. Dear Sharron

    I am glad that you will be speaking with the counsler. So important that you are heard. Sorry you are having drama even with him being in an offsite program. Amazing. These guys are so good at telling people what they want them to hear, partial truths etc. Your concerns should be heard and are crucial in the outcome of this. I don’t really understand the “I want to end the relationship, or being pumped up.” I just don’t get where the assertiveness training sb part of an SA program. They assert themselves PLENTY in all the wrong areas! Heck even the cast of Star-Gate is not safe. lol. that is the problem. They should be pumped up about living a healthy life and wanting to repair the damage they’ve done. Wondering about effectiveness of program, or, if he is telling the truth (probably not they are experts). Sa’s should be getting in touch w/pain, taking accountability, being HUMBLE about damage they’ve caused their families, building skills to deal/heal. He does not sound humble Sharron. Perhaps a question to ask is, what is the goal of the program? how should the sa leave as opposed to when they came in? just a thought. sorry for your drama. hang tight, assert your concerns– they are everything here.keep being heard.

  116. Pam – you are always a good resource person. All my psych nursing seems to be put on back burner when I am dealing with this guy.
    He called tonight, and everything has changed. He said we were not communicating – that he has no intention of watching tv or going to movies. According to him, I misinterpreted what he said. I don’t think so! In the course of the conversation, he said “Well, since this has been all mis-commnication I guess you won’t need to talk with my therapist. I asked him what she wanted to talk to me about, and he said he didn’t know-probably that we were not communicating effectively, therefore, are probably not on the same page. I see that as a red flag! What do you think?
    Thanks for all the input. You are always so helpful. If you can think of anything else, please send it on.
    You are great!

  117. Pam,

    If your SA is even 1/2 way serious about recovery, he would not be putting himself in situations like going to Brazil. (I’ve read your story, so know the history) For me, it would be like my SA insisting he was OK to browse the internet for a few hours to relax. He knows he can’t do that, ever again. The day he tries to tell me he is OK to do it, is the day I walk out as I know he is not serious.

    I’m with everyone else. Take the goodies with a smile. I hope the diamond is of decent size that can be sold to pay for something else you need.

  118. Oh Sharron, thats so horrible, and now he’s backpeddling?
    Something smells funny.
    I’m with Mary. My SA is busy with fellowship meetings in the evenings, cousnelling in the evening, him and I go out min 1 evening on the weekend, we usually go out with friend one evening. He’s too busy to watch tv! Ok, yes, when he gets home its on, but normally to what I am watching, or we have the radio on. There is housework to do, he does his own laundry , has his workbooks to do, ect..
    A while back, we rented a movie to watch, and it got a bit uncomfy. I was surprised when we both said at the same time, that maybe it wasn’t appropriate and we should stop it.

    I always feel that when my SA gets “pushy” about soemthing, that something isn’t right.

  119. Pam,
    My thoughts echo what the other women are saying…he is planning a last hurrah and then a SA meeting…they always say “ask for forgiveness not permission”. Actually it probably isn’t a last hurrah anyway.

    To me it make no sense for a man to go on vacation alone alone without a spouse. It is just weird. Brazil!-It’s not like its a fishing weekend with the guys.
    Good luck to you πŸ™‚

  120. To all the lovelys:

    thanks all, for input. great advice and reinforcement of what we know to be true. i.e. trip is BS – it is running with his addiction in full. I know this may sound weird, and we have all mentioned faith and God, I know He is with me, even in the darkest hours and husband bailing and giving way to addiction. BUT, I am telling you, its turning out to be a blessing–I will be able to see CLEAR for the first time in months, living with an SA is always so convulted, w/lies untruths. I feel happier and lighter already. These next couple weeks will determine ALOT about what I want for me, what I want for my daughter. How/where I want to live, fight for house or not, etc. I am feeling empowered for a change. I can get used to this. I can’t believe I ended up with such an idiot. I mean he is very handsome/ my daughter is gorgeous. Hate to brag, but she really is. At least something good came out of him. Plus a business, that can support me/supplement so I can have a nice life, while he sweats and toils to support his habit until he cracks. Believe me, community property can be an advantage, I am learning. I was devastated when he booked, now I can’t wait for him to go. I don’t feel like a schizo neither. I feel clearer.

  121. Pam – I am in aggreement with the others. Forget the Spycam and file for divorce. I know we are not supposed to give advice, but he has clearly shown you that he has no regards for your feelings. And, this rings true for all SA’s – they do not have the ability to show empathy!
    If he had any intention for changing his behavior and working towards recovery, he would not plan a trip to Brazil. He is self centered, manipulative, and definitely trying to play you.
    Don’t feel sorry for him – I got hooked into that. Whatever finances he has to incur to help you out, it is his responsibility to do so.
    Good luck.

  122. Dear all,

    wanted to give an update on the saga. I leave for east coast this week, for 1 week to visit family. so if i don’t post next week, thats why. Spoke with therapist, she has counselled both of us in past for marriage counseling, before I knew about the SA. She is aware of all issues, the extreme detriment of this trip, his acting out, etc. she agrees I need legal counsel on living arrangement and divorce. said by no means should we be under the same roof as we sort through the end of our relationship, its downright dangerous given his history. Until a decision has been made as who is going to live where and when, I am going to stay with my mother in law temporarily. she does not want us on the 6 oclock news, and I know he will not interfere with me there, it’s like free protective custody until futher arrangements have been made. I will not be in the house anymore once he returns. He will manipulate, plead and cry. and I don’t think it is going to matter.

    since he has been travelling, I am peaceful on my own with my daughter in the home. The anger comes in waves, it is so overwehlming how pissed off I am, I don’t even trust myself to live under the same roof until divorce more established. I know it seems strange to live with my mother in law, but the funny thing is, we lived with her when we first moved out here after marrying. I started off in her house as a new bride. I will now exit from there. Many of his problems trace back to that house and her. Perhaps there is a greater reason things will play out this way.

    I do not have enough money for my own apt at this point, but a couple months should suffice. It is a great inconvenience, almost and hour out of the way, each way. but he won’t leave so I have no choice. and it is free, for now. all roads leading back to points of origin. wish me luck.

  123. Pam – I commend you for your strength. You are taking the big and final step in creating a healthy life for yourself and your’e daughter.

    Keep the spirits up – you will go through highs and lows, but please feel confident in making he right decision.

    I don’t know the family dynamics of the mother-in-law, but you mentioned how she was a big factor in molding him into the person he is today. Just be careful not to allow her to engage you in any of her drama-It is very nice of her, however,to let you stay with her.

    We will all keep you close to our hearts until we hear from you again.

  124. All,

    I am reflecting tonight, as I get ready to board a plane tomorrow to see my family. My last visit was may 2009. I was starting a new job and would soon be closing on our first home. back then I believed in my husband and marriage. And wanted to have another child in the future. I have to reiterate, because I need to, that I had absolutely no idea what my husband was up to during our marriage. there are times I question myself- like duh I must have known, how could I not? I had suspicions, there were “flags”= big ones! but when reality d-day hit, and the news came out, June 1 2010, I was completely traumatized. I don’t think I would have been so affected if I “really” believed my suspicions, and thought possible all he told me. I am embarassed to have married such an asshole. someone capable of hurting me so, and in conjunction, my father, my family who has loved and supported the marriage. this affects so many lives. If this had come out earlier in the marriage perhaps it could have been different. there must be reasons that we find out when we do…I can’t imagine what they are, only that this was the year for me to know. Or, his addiction had grown so far it could no longer be hidden, and it hit breaking point.

    I hope to build social circles, get out more, make more friends, hit the gym, have some fun, and find a life out there. slow to start I am sure, (how much living can I do in my mother in law’s home?). I know that is temporary. I fear my next battle will be lonelyness. but I think this is natural give the circumstances. I had a thought today, yes it is stroking my own back, but perhpas food for thought. If I could, in the 9 years be married to an SA ocd abusive high drama all encompassing energy vacuum, and STILL be a good mom, buy a home in a coveted area, invest in family business and see it succeed, return to the work force after being home and secure a decent job during a recession, obtain some professional licenses along the way–IMAGINE WHAT I CAN DO WITHOUT HIM? IMAGINE WHAT I CAN DO WITHOUG ALL MY ENERGY GOING INTO CHECKING HIS COMPUTER,HIS MOODS AND EMOTIONAL INSTABILITY. I am seriously thinking about running for President. I think I could run a small country without him. πŸ™‚

  125. Pam,
    LOL , you have hit it on the head.

    Thats exactly what i keep wondering.All the time spent on checking , or reading up on the web about SA and that includes the time spent here in reading and responding.Its a huge chunk of time and mindspace that we are giving to one single human being.

    Just not worth it.

    Its a road leading to nowhere.

  126. Pam,
    I have thought the same thing. At first I thought ” how am I going to do all this? I am exhausted, tired, three kids? What am I thinking?” But then I remembered I am drained because of this, I am exhasuted becuase I am picking up all the slack, My thoughts are consumed with sadness and misery over out relationship, at work I am reading or checking this site. All of this time consumed on looking for a shred of hope and trying to figure out what I am supposed to do. I knew all along what I should do, but felt like I was bailing if I left. I had to come to a point where I did not feel guilty and made sure of my decision.

    I think what is tougher is that this SA husband plays the cards. Plays you and it takes a while to see through the fluff and the manipulation for what it really is.

  127. Dear Flora,

    Thanks for your last post. I am now back in LA and ready to move down the legal court system even further. I had lots of support from family. Found out my cousin who is divorced, just found out her boyfriend of 3 yrs is guess what–a sex addict. amazazing. It is everywhere. I referred her to the site and we are supporting each other.

    In regards to the “the what the heck am I gonna do?”, funny how guilt is quickly dissipating. It is so scary once I start seeing how I have been “played” what an empty selfish shell he is. My health or happiness never at the heart of it. Always about them. With almost every calculated manipulated move they make. How can I feel guilty about that? don’t really. Just sad.

    Need strength to be bad ass in divorce though. He will use every tool. I am still susceptible for sure. If they don’t work on me, he’ll use our daughter to get to me. I know it.

    Flora I am so proud that you made your move, and with 3 children!!! You are amazing. Thank you for love and support.

  128. Pam, I am about 2 years ahead of you, and they do use the children if they have those personality disorders.
    I have never been a fighter, but I have found in dire straights, and when it means your children, you will be able to fight. It will drain you at times. Really though, there is no other choice.
    Mine is still up to his same sleezy ways with a longtime GF who he is CONSTANTLY screwing around on and he practically lives at the strip clubs. The day that ball drops, he will just find another GF and do it all over again.
    Here is how you know it is just what they are, ask yourself, did he do it before you, with you, and after you? Then it is just what they are and it is really easy once you SEE what they really are, aka, wade through the lies and BS to the truth.
    Then you have to deal with the sickening reality of what you put your faith in and dreamed and planned with. I have found disgust to be very difficult to deal with, and have really forgotten anything good about being with him for 14 years at all once I discovered the things I cherished were lines he used on everyone. There is nothing to cherish or believe in, so with nothing you forget. But then you can’t forget the reality of the situation, what was really going on. I find myself just sickened by him. When you know what they are really about, it is a no-brainer that you have to protect your children.

  129. Dear Lynn:

    Most agreed. At the end of the day, it is about our kids and how to best protect them harm. Everything else is a sham. thanks

  130. Dear all,
    SUBJECT: ABUSE AND CONTROL
    I just wanted to update everyone on the saga. For the first time ever, in the longest time, (probably 10 years b4 I married) I am gaining my sanity and mental health back from the doldrums of despair. Never mind being married to an SA who sleeps with men and trannnies. Yes, never mind that. As I am coming out of the Fog, more like a black blanket into blinding light rather, I cannot understand how this guy manipulated so much abuse and control of my life. How did I accept the unacceptable and go on from day to day? His rants, raves put downs, loss of friends, mis use of money, lack of rescpect, etc etc. It’s funny – Flora you mentioned how you discovered how empty he was, and anything cherished was stuff he used on everyone. The lines that used to work on me, I see thru. When he tried harder to please me after being a complete ahole and asking me to stop the divorce, it grabs me for a second, then, naaah.

    He is back from Brazil. Get this “” he took inventory of his life down there, and now wants to get well. Will I give him another chance, he doesn’t deserve it?”

    HOw about a big “HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL NO!!!!!!!!!!!!”
    Lorraine I would make you proud these days. I looked him straight in the eyes told him simply this “” never ever ever ever. sorry”
    πŸ™‚
    still going thru legal decisions. IN guest room at house some nights other’s at mother in laws. drive too far. I will no longer sanitize the insane as ok. so, not ok.

    I feel great. πŸ™‚

  131. HOOOOOOOORRRRRRAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Can you hear the cheers? Hold onto that strength. We are here for you any time you need us.

    Good job girl.

  132. Lorraine and JoAnn,

    Thank you — hugs right back. Feels good. I know not all days will feel as good as today, but it’s like driving away and seeing a former self in the rear view mirror. Standing in the driveway in a ratty dress looking miserable and confused. Or, when it comes to his demons of control and fear, watching the wicked witch of the east say ” I’m melting.” they are just not so strong anymore. It will be interesting to see what he comes up with next, they always do.

    Question for both of you — While I am not in agreement with the COSA model or co-addict model in that we are somehow responsible for our SA’s behavior, COSA does raise an interesting point on something. I keep pondering it and I think it may have some value. That it’s not a complete accident that I ended up in a relationship with an SA. Now, before you lose your sanity in me saying that – hear me out. I don’t think I am responsible for his abuse of me, or his addiction. But I did stay with someone 9 years that was verbally and at times physically abusive and allowed it and stayed with it. I allowed it, by not leaving him. do you hear my point? What pain is in me that would even attract such a destructive person? Have either of you ever sort of addressed that in your counseling and therapy on your road to wellness? I am just trying to take stock of what is true, and needs to be looked at on my end. That may be a point I need to visit, is all I am saying. May I have your input on this? thank you

  133. Pam,

    First of all, I think that’s a FANTASTIC question and one that I have definitely asked myself as well. I think the answers are not always easy ones, though. There are so many factors involved.

    For me, I just told myself that “I could handle it”. I wasn’t married to this guy and deluded myself into thinking that he wasn’t as dangerous, as he clearly was. I over-looked several GLARINGLY OBVIOUS RED FLAGS, and most of the time, they are there.

    I realize now, that despite the fact that I’m certainly old enough to know better, in some ways, I had the relational experience of someone half my age. Most of the time, we are judging another person based on our OWN VALUE SYSTEMS. So, we expect that everyone else is operating the same as us. Well, some are and some clearly are not. And the problem is that the con artist KNOWS this, and deftly pulls the wool over his victim’s eyes and then, its too late. We’ve fallen in love with this character—

    Hold on a sec… Diane is whispering something in my ear… yes, yes, I’ll tell her. Thanks for reminding me D. πŸ˜‰

    Therapy. Not sure if you are seeing someone yet or not, but it really helps.(with the right one!) It takes time, but a skilled therapist can help one figure out all of the different entities and how to avoid them the next time. Because, yes, I do think that a lot of us have a tendency to fall for these types of grifters.

    The other thing that I think is important is that when you start seeing someone, to keep your options open and keep dating other guys, even if you are head over heels about this one all seems good. A sex addict will quickly lose interest, because he NEEDS someone who’s going to submit nicely and a woman who’s not so willing will not be a good patsy, I mean candidate for him.

    I hope that helped!

    xo,

    L

  134. I am so proud of you, Pam, you have grown so much! You are a kick ass, stand up for yourself woman and if you need to be reminded of that occasionally, we will be happy to do that:)
    Marie

  135. Hi Pam – Hurray!!! You are doing great. I know there will be a lot of stress
    while everything is being settled – Don’t give him an inch and remain strong. You can do it!!
    Whenever I have had a weak moment, in the past, I got out my journaling to read how much Steve has put me through the past couple of years, and I am quickly shocked back to reality.
    I received an E-mail from Steve’s therapist and she wants us to be very careful and not dwell on needs not being met, and set some short and long term goals. I wrote her back and told her I have been through more with Steve than I ever thought I could or would tolerate. I went on to tell her how my boundaries have to be! That is, a total separation because of the continued lieing and also the fact I didn’t feel he had made any progress after his return from L.A. I made it very plain, and told her to share it with Steve, that I would have to have at least a 3 month period of sobriety
    with the addiction before I could ever consider a reconciliation. I will rely on her expertise to advise me of such. Three months is probably not long enough – should have said six months. I doubt seriously he will be able to meet that boundary, but will re-evaluate from there. Actually, if he hasn’t made any progress in 3 months-he probably won’t. Right Guys!!
    It is good to hear we are all doing pretty well this week.

  136. Hi Just wanted to respond:

    Lorraine – Thank you, well said. Yes I am seeing a therapist ( a very good one) and I am working on addressing some of my “why’s and how’s”. Tough stuff, but I am looking to the future.

    Marie – Thank you! I hope I can continue to be strong. And you as well.

    Sharron – I am so proud of you setting a real tangible boundary- 3mos, 6mos, whatever it is, it is measurable. It must feel good. Seems like you are making real progess too . .. . glad we are having a strong week too. enjoy your weekend

  137. Pam – I was reflecting on what you said yesterday about “why do we pick these guys?” I disclosed my childhood to Steve’s therapist in a private session with her. I asked her why I have had so much difficulty getting away from Steve, when I have never had a problem spotting red flags in the past and have always been quick to get out of a dysfunctional relationship.
    It gets real psychological! I had a sociopathic father who was never emotionally available to me. He was also into criminal activity. Although she does not see me as “damaged,” (Feels like I overcame the childhood) she stated that because I fell so much in love with Steve, and then found out about the addiction, I was stuck in trying to fix him because I never saw my dad change, and he was never fixed. It is called “trauma bonding.” By the way, one of my sons told me Steve looks like my father. Isn’t that prophetic! I didn’t associate any similarity with my dad, but it all makes sense – I probably was playing out a script of childhood trauma.
    Can any of you relate childhood trauma to Trauma Bonding with your’e SA.
    JoAnn says she came from a functional homelife, so obviously it doesn’t always apply. The interesting part is I dated another man with a sexual addiction. After I found out, I dumped him. He was nothing like my dad.
    Will be interested in hearing some of your stories.

  138. Dear Sharron

    It does get “real” psycological doesn’t it? The how’s and why’s we choose what we do. The “how did I end up here?” sort of thing. I definitley think some trauma bonding is part of the dysfunction in my relationship. Coming up for me in therapy is that I was adopted. Have some real abandonment issues. Leaving a relationship, no matter how bad, has felt almost impossible until this point. Also, my first relationship, first love, was with the cute, popular, “bad boy” in high school who did alot of damage to me. Didn’t feel my parents stepped in enough to stop the relationship, should never have been going out with him. I think many poor choices resulted from that experience, including this marriage. I accepted the unacceptable at 16, and allowed it at 40. Time for a change people!!! I am hoping to address my junk and make better decisions in the future. But it all starts now, doesn’t it Sharron? Amazing how our upbringing plays such a major role in who we are today. Glad you shared. Interesting that your husband looks like your Dad. I think many of us do this on some level, and it is normal, in the physical sense. But the emotional choices we make, character based decisions we make, well that is really another story. Mine is up for serious review, if you know what I mean. I wish you well

  139. Yes, our childhood is vital to whom or what we become. We cannot change our past, but we can certainly learn from it.

    Even more important, we have the knowledge to prevent our children from being harmed by the negative influences of Sexual Addiction.

    I cannot stress it enough, we must protect the children. We, as mothers, cannot allow our precious children to have their personalities and future lives be ruined by the traumas that Sex Addiction brings into the family home.

  140. OMG. told mother in law (for better or worse) about husband’s addiction. She called him and confronted. Which of course he denied or double talked. However, she did not handle very delicatley. It basically went like this. “so, son are you Gay?” nice job.

    He said he wants wife and family. Yes he does. And sex with trannies and men and prostitutes too. Oops he forgot to mention that one. He denied and covered, as expected. He is angry beyond all else with me for blabbing. But since we are divorcing I feel I have done the right in letting someone who loves him, (his mother) know about his behavior, what it has done to me, and how out of control he really is. I fear tradgedy. That after he is left, it will end up in a free fall until he bottoms out to get help, or ends up dead in a gutter somewhere. He is such a trainwreck. a mother should know when her son is in danger and hurting his family. Even if she doesn’t believe or it gets buried somewhere. I blew the whistle. I hope she doesn’t blab to all family, as she can have a very big mouth. But I don’t want my daughter’s father being “talked” about in a way that could hurt her. Hopefully she is wise enough to protect him and her grandchild from malice and gossip. Perhaps I opened a can of worms. But then again, ANY REASON AT ALL TO DENY ACCOUNTABILITY. EVEN “THE OH IT WILL HURT OUR DAUGHTER IF PEOPLE KNOW” CARD. Yes it will. I guess you should commit to rehab and make her proud then, eh? Oops, not gonna happen. That is how much he cares. any thoughts? any one talk to their SA;s family and have it backfire? thanks

  141. Hi Pam,

    I think that’s fine that you told your soon to be ex M-I-L, what is going on with her son. What she does with that information has nothing to do with you and is out of your control.

    It is very common for parents of SAs to be as much in denial and full of blame (in the wrong direction) as their effed up children. so be it.

    Even if she blabs all over town (that her son is a faggy perv) which she is unlikely to, your husband’s sexuality is his business. It just happens to not work for you or your daughter, and that is why you are divorcing him. It does not mean that you don’t still love him or care for him, just that his lifestyle is incompatible with yours; it sucks, but life goes on.

    I doubt very very much that this situation will cause him to hit rock bottom and seek “help”. A heart attack/stroke, AIDS— penile cancer——- maybeeeeeeeeee, but not this. Nope. He is incapable of understanding any part of this or what he should do about it, because there is nothing wrong with himself. (from his standpoint) Since there is nothing wrong with himself, it must be you!

    Please try not to engage in his shit. He is a drowning victim and he’s trying to pull you down with him. Hold your head up high. Anyone with half an ounce of brains in their head will know that you are an honorable and upstanding woman who is doing right for herself and her child. I admire you a lot!!!

    All my best,

    Lorraine

  142. Hi Pam,
    I made sure my inlaws knew. We all had a sit down and I made him tell them, and no minimizing the crap. My SA has been viewing porn in front our two year old daughter at the time while he stayed home during the day to watch her. So my soul purpose was that while he is living with mommy and daddy that they are aware of what he has done, to hopefully prevent it in the future from happening again, since I am not there.

    It went okay. But as lorraine said, they the addict son or daughter is messed up. It takes a special kinda messed up tp raise one who is messed up, the underlying story for my situation of the SA is still unknown. He has not told. He would appear to come from an upstanding family, all kids went to college (he has two brothers), his parents are still married, both have worked hard all of their lives. But one questions how they never noticed that their son was a heavy pot smoker and addicted to porn as early at 10-12 (now mid-30’s, pot stopped about 6 years ago)? So they have enabled and brought this on from a young age. And yes maybe they are in denial, have been this whole time, and have enabled (BIG TIME).

    So since I really had no expectations of our meeting, but to get the main point out, I was not dissapiointed early on. But then I was later thinking about the questions they asked me. One was is there still the underlying love? and the other is will the trust return? His mother also made a comment that she and his dad have had their troubles over the year and you have to choose to split, or FAMILY and that they have always chose family.

    So short of the story is very little accountability for the SA and the majority of their issues are with me. Yet confirming I think what lorraine also said that it is me with the problem, not their son. In addition there is no room in a family with children (who are living at home and under 18) for an SA as far as I am concerned, escpeially one like mine who crossed that boundary (porn in front of the daughter). Hence their questions were all about me and when I would get my trust back. Not really grasping anything that this would have done to me, our kids, the family, that he led a deceptive life, that I did not know the whole story on our wedding day, how dysfunctional this addiction is? How it shows how dysfunctional their son is?

    So in my world of hope, I had hoped that in some way they would support him and get him help and be sure he was getting help. Somehow feel for me and the family, no empathy (guess I see where it came from!). No they have their own special kind of crazy, and it is in an environment like this where crazy is made. And the SA is back there.

    There is no hope anymore for the relationship with the SA. Which I figured this would be the case when he moved back home. I am still young. Wether it is “just porn” or hookers, this addiction is never good or healthy. Nothing is bred of this but selfishness, greed, narcissism…etc. (or I should say that is the personality of the addict). The addiction is the symptom. He still has done little to provide and is “in school” again for the foruth career in is lifetime. I am no longer going to support this.
    I have been struggling over what the fair share of finances should be, i say screw it, let the courts decide. The SA will do no more than he wants, then the law can bend his arm!

    P.S. anyothers struggling with this in the household where an SA has not been contributing. The courts look down upon this. The attorney said he would like to drink beer and shoot pool all day, but he cannot because his obligation is to his family and to provide for them. He said that this is the viewpoint of the courts as well. So you actually have quit a card in your pocket. The attorney also said it is not an addiction, but rather an excuse to bad things. Yet another powerful card to play in court. (As we all know, right now it is not technically an addiction based on the medical community).

  143. Hi Starry,
    I would never choose to tell my father-in-law or his siblings about my husband being an SA, his mother died 15 years ago. His Dad would say “That’s my boy! It’s okay, just be discreet”
    His brother would say, ” That’s all he did?” and his sister would say, ” Everything’s fine, that sounds like my husband, you don’t have a problem.”
    How do I know? Because my husband tried to talk to them and that’s what he got.
    And these are intelligent people with stable families. His Dad is a lawyer and city leader, now retired. His brother is a widely recognized artist and his wife is a senior partner in a nationally known law firm. His sister is a Harvard Law graduate, and her husband is an MD-PHD who does cancer research and was interviewed on the national evening news recently. All of these people look like upstanding respectable citizens who have it all together. And the truth is that they all have behavior that I would tolerate even less well than my husband’s, which doesn’t make his okay by any standard.
    That is why I am so adamant that my children need to know, to stop this cycle.
    Marie

  144. Hi Marie,

    Funny you say that, mine too. It almost seems like the majority of these men have come from families that would appear put together and okay. Starry’s as well.

    It almost seems like they get to a point where it is owed them or they have to much time in idle. I am reading the book The Good Earth. It is not a true story, but some of it makes sense. The husband worked the fields and he is a man of the land. He works hard to get what they have….but then the fields become flooded. He has money and idle time…he then finds a women at a tea shop (hoar house), he falls in love for her (as the book would say, but really it is lust only as that is all he does with her) and goes for another women. Then he has two. One who cleans the house and cares for him and the kids, and the other that he sleeps with.

    So then the author/characters also talk of the lords and princes who have many women, and thats all they do all day. One after the other’ one they grow tired of one they toss her out like yesterdays trash, and go to the next. No work, no responisbilites.

    If our husbands had to work their ass of to plow the fields so we could eat, have shelter over our heads…things would be different. This disease seems to thrive on wealth (not necessarily rich rich, but comfortable) and idle time. In other words they have to have cash to pay the prostitutes, buy the Videos, the TV the computer and they have to have the time time, where they are able to get away or in my case hardly work at all.

    I know in some books I read that this disease is not race or class specific. It effects everyone. But part of me thinks our society has grown to where resposibility and empathy is getting to be a thing of the past. And is heading toward a narcissistic future (i have read a few book son this topic i think one was by sandy hotchkiss). Maybe we should throw these men of ours back into the fields!!

  145. Hi Flora & Marie

    Ya, my SA didn’t exactly come from a horribly abusive, poverty ridden family. If anything, they were quite religious and from what I know of her, his mother was pretty domineering. I think thats where some of it maybe came from. Even now, considering all the family is grown up and have thier own lives, she is massivly co-dependant and incredibly manipulative. She’s a “nice woman”, but I cringe when I have to spend much time around her as she “drains” me somehow. I know its not exactly harsh, but I have thought recently that if I had to live with her for 20 years, I’d probably be a bit f*cked up as well.

    My H has not told his family, and I suspcet that he won’t. He’s not close to them in any way. I mean, they live in the same city as us, and we might see them maybe 3 times a year. I wonder sometimes, why … has something maybe happened that he either cannot face, or cannot remember? He acts weird around them, like he has some sort of anger towards them, but on the other hand, nervous and, some other thing, not sure how to explain, but almost in a “heightened state”. not sure if its anxiouty or what?? (he seems to talk louder, laugh in a weird way and is generally argumentative..but maybe thats just brotherly rivalry?)

    Anyways, if he told his mom, I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t want to hear it. She’d probably tell him to go talk to the priest in church or something and then never speak about it again. I mean really, people of “thier standing” simply can’t behave like that, and if its not talked about and hidden, then there’s nothing to worry about..

    ughhh

  146. Hi Starry,
    You came very close to describing my mother-in-law. A very “religious” person, yet profoundly unhappy–untouched the grace her religion is actually about. Manipulative—with everyone, and terribly mean if they don’t do what she wants, or if they gets something that she wants. Very jealous. Yet very “nice”—all a facade. She dangerous and cruel. She cultivated an emotionally incestuous relationship with her son, my husband—one of the basic roots of sex addiction life. Since therapy that relationship has been revealed to be deeply abusive on every level. And emotional incest, BTW, is called covert sex abuse. She lies. She punishes. She humiliates people. She flirts wildly with other women’s husband in her church, but acts like a saint. She hates body. Is bulimic. Obsessed with bodily functions. sexually frigid. probably a survivor of childhood sexual abuse.

    She demonstrates a personality disorder. Your SA sounds like he knows she’s dangerous. But he is also still controlled by her this way. Good luck.

    D.

  147. Diane,
    My mother in law is similar as well. Everything centers around her, her needs and wants. And if you cross her watch out. She is double sided, nice to your face, but not behind your back.

    For instance when my SA told her about his addition. The email in return ended up getting turned about in some weird way how they (his mom and dad) did not really care for my two older daughters. But yet to my face she says how kind and nice they are and wonders why they don;t want to come over and hang out with them. It;s a twisted world. I don;t know much more but have noticed these things. My SA seems to think that his parents are fine and did the best they can. And when the mother talks nicely of the kids he feels she is trying to make amends. Amends for what? I don;t know what she said, technically as she never told me. So no, making amends would be saying she is sorry. My SA does not see any of it and thinks she is fine. Although does admit not perfect, but who is. There is a story brewing here, underneath everything, the perfect exterior.

    I have pointed out the narcissistic tendencies. I did some research online. It;s funny it would appear based on all the symptoms that his mother is narcisstic. Meaning the SA grew up feeling worthless and empty and typically have an addiction to fill the empty void. This is what presents in the child of one, as everything is about the mothers needs and wants. But rarely does the child ever see this or is it ever diagnosed as such.

    Its tough, no matter what. And the mystery is too hard to solve. I so far have not been able to figure it out. And the SA does not hear me and thinks they are fine. And babies them, they baby him, and now he is back home, a baby again.

  148. Diane, I believe there is more about your mother-outlaw. Read about female sex addiction. She doesn’t have to have had intercource outside of relationship, etc., to be active Acting-In SA. Those of you whose partner seems to never be up for Sex, connecting with true intimacy, distant during sex-look up Sexual Anorexia.
    My SA has used his son to met His emotional needs since his birth. Son is 23-biggest heart in the world.
    Since I wised up, have an RO against SA for DV, he is with Son or calling him constantly-Son feels he is “taking care of Dad”-Beleives whatever he says. SA is keeping son a social cripple.
    This Web-site saved my life. I live in WY-very rural, blue collar “good ole’ boy” territory.
    I was “healthy” when I married my SA. Had been convinced I was Codependent/Coaddict-I agree I met the criteria behaviors due to damaging relationship. Co-behaviors situational-Not pathological! I was traumatized by his change on our wedding day-two years of hell until his diagnosis-DV in 2008, moved out-continued counseling-DV again, 09/2010. PTSD-Yes! Situational, also. Complex PTSD-Yes! Situational. Not part of Who I Am!
    Church has done nothing. Law is doing nothing. Lost everything financially, health crashed, I am 56. Afraid of starting over. Worth it to stop the insanity-the Compulsive Lying.
    Due to explaining what I knew to be true, VIA-This Web-site, saved my sanity-Saved Me from just “checking out”. The thought of a police officer going to my daughter’s door-and telling her that her Mother just took her own life-helped clear my thinking when I was in so much pain-all I wanted was for the pain to stop! I love Life.
    I will be OK. I have my Spirit, my Faith-supportive Family and Friends. Few know of my SECRET. Eight years!
    Secret just about poisoned me to death, mis-guided Loyality.
    A healthy person and an active addict, do not speak the same language. Forgiveness, over and over again-becomes permission to repeat past behaviors.
    I am going to my church leaders and asking for intervention.
    I am going to file for a legal seperation. Trying not lose the house, health insurance, life insurance, etc.
    I am going to use JoAnne’s Book, “Setting Boundaries” as a guideline for a 2-5 year marriage sabatical plan. He can take it-or be done!
    First two years-very limited contact-If any! Due to the DV-Anger. I will not play games with that part. I am requesting mental health evals in UT. If he is a BPD, Narcissist or Sociopath-even a Histronic, I am out of here. I am Tired.
    Religion has been my carrot.
    SECRECY my demise! May, this year, attended SA support group-No one but me, Facilitator (Sober for a year), and an older Missionary couple. Everything came puking out of me, until my skirt was soaked with tears and and “snot” (sorry). Loss of Job, health, SA-hit me at the same time.
    I attend several 12-Step meetings a week. One of them is , is specifically for support spouses of SA and female SA’s. Seperate females from males.
    Young female SA attends-I love her and it has soothed my soul to share how she is suffering in her recovery. Her spouse is her sponser/recovery porn addict-Believe she needs other sponser, as well. Someone in recovery, same sex, detached from issue.
    I don’t post often. However-I read every single post.
    Those of you whose SA is the father of your children, you have had to leave your homes, have to live a lesser quality of life financially-I am so very sorry for your struggles especially when you are so wounded. You have my love and prayers. I am both grateful and so very thankful for you sharing your stories.
    When I first told more of my story, “Loraine” answered. Her anger For Me, What Happened To ME, helped validate my sorrow and despair. I wasn’t crazy-or going crazy! I was suffering and in despair. Gave me hope that between me, and my spiritual force; I will recover and survive-and Thrive, again, soon.
    You can do what you need to do. There are many resources out there. Prepare financially before you leave or stay, if you can.
    SA is counting on your pain to launch you out of his life in a moment of destruction. Finacially protect yourself.
    Lawyer up-with Legal Aid, Women’s Law sites, etc., even in no-fault states. You may have an exception to the divorce laws, in your state, due to his behaviors and what it has done to You-emotionally, health, etc. Chose a good, supportive counselor, medical doctor, etc., Document, document-everything-journal his behaviors, how you felt. This is what is helping me.
    Someday-I will give my name.

  149. Dear All:
    subject: Finances

    Hello ladies. today I need to winge on something on , so if you would kindly indulge me. As you know, my darling SA soon to be ex took off to Brazil. During our marriage we have always “pooled our money”. My income + his. Well, without going into further detail, I have informed him that it will not be the case going forward. My income is my income, and I will not be paying the mortgage anymore or any of “his bills”, as our agreement is that he is stay in house and pay mortgage, and I will move. He still wants to “pool” and “he will help me out to see me set up somewhere”. Sorry, but trust is more than gone. Cannot do that. I will save up for my place, and legal fees of our divorce “the old fashioned way” whether he likes it or not. He is fit to be tied!!! btw, he spent nearly 7000 total on his escapade. We could not afford it. Accounts for our business are paying us slow, and it has left us in financial turmoil because of his disease, selfishness and irrepsonsible behavior. btw- he blames me for the mess. amazizing. It feels soooo good to control my own destiny and put my hard earned dollars where they should be going. These guys abuse the sh*t out of their partners, including their partners money. not no mo. If we can shut off the money train, we shut off their “stuff”. Or at least my dollars helping him to do what has wrecked our family in the first place. It’s funny, I am not even doing this out of anger or to punish him. Although he sees it this way (because he is a child). I just can’t have my salary being pooled and abused. Or, give any control as to when he “thinks” its a good time for me to move out and help me out. screw that. I am helping me move. the way I see fit. no room for error. enough said. thanks all.

  150. Pam…..
    LOLOLOL YOU GO GIRL!!!!

    Move out of the way……….Here comes PAM!!!

    Keep up the good work…………..

    :-), :-), πŸ™‚

    Mary

  151. Dear All

    A little update. Subject: hooray for the addict

    as many of you know I am biding time until I get my apt. Since his return from brazil he has been a nightmare and I have made my decision to go. Today, this Sunday, SA returned from cash bar catering job asked me to deposit 900 dollars. gave me cash. then went out to do errands or something. don’t care. returned to give me another 700 dollars, feeling very proud of himself. he was going to act out / have substances etc, and said he managed control, called a friend and talked himslef out of it. askef for some family time to watch movies order take out. I could give about 2 hrs of this, only to break down in tears. am i to do a cheer, be thankful that he almost acted out and turned around? I assured him it had no bearing on my decision to leave him but I was glad he had a good moment. Where the f*ck is the accountability of the devastating hurt this man had caused me and this family in every way? Oh, now you want 12 step and your family back? i can’t even do it. forgiveness, yes. trust given? never. I did not know I could be pushed to the point of no turning back. family time, in the meantime until I am out, plays on such an emotional chord I can’t even stand it. should i jump up and say hip hipp hooray theh addict had a good day, a positive moment? why is no consideration given to my hurt and devastation. I hope he does get better, for himself and my daughter. but I cannot stomach any “family time bs” after what he has done. horrendous

  152. Oh Pam…

    I’m so sorry you have to go through this hell with this sicko. I hope that you are able to go to your new home very soon. The whole thing—throwing cash at you and telling you that he WANTED to act out, but he didn’t. ewwww… What a f***ing loser. Makes me wonder how he came up with so much cash, so quickly. He returned after doing “errands” with ANOTHER $700??? hmmmm… wonder what this boy was up to…sniff.. sniff… sometin smells fishy here…

  153. Pam,
    Moving out would be a great thing especially with all of the craziness he is putting you through.

    As far as the cash and not acting out. Was this the cash he was going to use?

    I am not advocating either way. But not entirely certain that he absoultely did not act out. Seemed pretty deliberate in his plans, do errands, held back some cash, planned time out for a few hours. Then he comes home with extra cash for you saying he did not act out, but called a friend, and wants to do family time.

    Did you read JoAnn’s recent book on sex addiction. There is a whole story about Larry well into his recovery where he supposedly went out to dinner with a co-worker. He tells JoAnn he went to dinner, wrote it in his journal that he went to dinner! Come to find out later he had in fact hired a prostitute for the evening and acted out.

    So all in all if he made the right choice this time… great. Could it all be a rouse and lies… yes. He may have strength this early on, but the strenght should have started at never walking out the door at this point. He is very early in the recovery first six months. It is only going to get harder at this point. He may have made the right choice this time (although I doubt it), but what about next time?

    What does your gut tell you? He may have made so much money he could have acted out and the $700 was still excess. Also if your gut does not say “hooray for the addict” don’t do it and don’t beleive it. You deserve your own place and some space for this craziness. My guess if your skin is crawlin something is not right. Whether it be the lack of sympathy, empathy, the fact maybe he did act out, smug or arrogant attitute, I could go on and on!!! In other words there has not been a pradigm shift here.

  154. Pam,
    This is the guideline I use for myself to keep sane and stay focused. I don’t do anything I resent doing. Sometimes I don’t know I resent it until I am actually doing it, and then I explain calmly that this isn’t something I can do or want to do. I am not doing myself or my kids any favors if I am there with resentment.

    Stay strong, we are with you:)

  155. thank you all. btw my hooray for addict, was one of sarcasm. my gut says, he deliberatly planned to act out, per his confession, then turned it around, I believe that true. ok great for him, what about me????. His latest mantra is that he has seen bottom, and wants to change his life. If this is true, I am glad. but i cannot do the walk with him at this point. i was pushed too far. He still too unstable for me take seriously. and i agree, ok, this one time you showed strength. what about the next 30yrs of your life? what I resent and bothered by is the narcissism. that even in say 1 day of a heart felt bail out behavior change, one where acting out and money scamming almost occured, it is still all about him, his addiction, why he does what does, blah blah. absolutely no remorse or acknowledgment to the complete devastation it has caused in MY life. I can’t stand it. even if, and i do mean if, his recovery efforts are going to last and are real which I doubt the addict is still not taking responsibility for the pain he has caused. it’s like running someone over with your car, maiming them for life, and saying oops im sorry, i am gonna get better now. what about the parapalygic (sp) you just created? what are they to do with your apology? can it ever be sorry enough? I don’t think so. someone get me the f*ck out of this house!! it cannot happen fast enough. it is dragging. God speed please. for me and my daughter. i have got to leave this junkie faster than santa comin down the chimney. thanks so much for caring all. the goal is to get me an apt by Feb 1. seems like an eternity. i hope i can do sooner. it is a $$ thing

  156. Santa’s commin soon! Maybe he will bring you some cash πŸ™‚

    Although maybe he should go do whatever he did a few more times so you can get mor cash! πŸ˜‰

  157. Hi Pam – Talk about manipulation!! An SA will do any thing to get what they want. It is my opinion, you can’t believe a word they say until they are well on the road to recovery, and then I don’t know if you can really ever believe them. I can really relate to what JoAnn said in her book about Larry’s journaling. My SA did the very same thing – he knew I had access to his journaling, so he wrote exactly what he wanted me and the therapist to know. All lies and minimizing! So, BFD – all of a sudden your’e SA says he had a tendency to act out but didn’t do it. Clap! Clap! for him!!. And now, he wants his family back and start a 12-step program??? A day late and a dollar short as far as I am concerned. And the money- total manipulation. And I have to agree with Lorraine – sounds very suspicious as to where he came up with all of this cash so quickly.
    I know this has to be so difficult for you, but take it from one that knows, once you are away from him you will feel like a weight has been lifted from your shoulders. Just being on your own and away from the “insanity” totally takes the stress out of your’e life. Since I moved out, I have a total new perspective. Things are so normal – I don’t know how to act! I have to really step back and take a good look into why I put up with all the BS for so long!!! So,
    stay strong, don’t waiver for even one second. There is light at the end of the tunnel.

  158. thanks all – you are the best. Yes, I am remaning strong in my position. On the cash front, he would be able to come with that type of cash quickly after an event if it is a cash bar basis, this one was. He did not close down bar prior eve, so he went to event to pick up our cut on Sunday from event mgr, this is typical–they count the money, divide it up between client and our catering service on whatever the split is. He was not going to tell me about the additional 700, only hand me the 900 and go do his thing with other 700. Shows you how trustworthy he is. This business does not do alot of cash bars, maybe 5 or 6 per year. And we do, it amazingly dissappers. He always has his hand in the cookie jar and treats it like his personal piggy bank.

  159. btw – sharron, yes thank you. so glad to hear that life feels normal- what is that like? I can’t even imagine. When I think of my own safe place, my heart dances. I can’t even do “the family” time at this point in the home. Him acting all nice and syrupy, gross. yes thank you for pointing that out, total manipulation at best. this sugar sweet bs is so false to me now. boy, have I grown :). doesn’t even work, it’s great. Or if it starts to coax me in, it doesn’t last long. I can’t wait to start new. please, pray for God speed

  160. Pam – I am so proud you have come to a decision and are stickingt by it. I’ll never forget a serman I heard one time where the minister talked about a “mug-wump.” Someone sitting on the fence and never able to get on or off. That always stuck with me – making a decision one way or the other is better than making none at all.
    I know we are not supposed to give advice, but I can’t help myself. Ha.! I would refuse to engage in any conversation with your’e SA regarding his addiction – he loves sucking you in, and will act just the way you want him to in hopes he can change your mind. As you said, “all nice and syrupy.” My SA is doing “Recovery Nation,” and one of the things he put in his lesson was, “I want to be seen as who I am, not who I want you to think I am.” (I can’t believe I just quoted my SA) Of course, easier said than done – I wonder how long it would take him to live up to that one. Anyway, that is exactly what your SA is doing – Creating the persona he thinks you want him to be. So, just have the mindset you have already moved out and moved on-what he says doesn’t mean shit! Just engage in conversation about necessary things – kids, finances, etc. It will give you peace of mind and frustrate the hell out of him if he can’t control you with his manipulation. In otherwords, just detach yourself from him even before you move out. Will make things a lot less frustrating for you.
    My SA is giving the appearance he is totally committed to recovery – doing “Nation Recovery, SA meetings twice a week, and seeing his therapist once a week. But, the proof is in the pudding!! He
    is breaking all boundaries we set before the separation. (I can tell by the spy-ware on his computer. (He put that on before the separation, and I have to admit I am sucked into seeing what
    he is doing and it is paying off. Is watching football games on his computer,( triggers on cheerleaders and commercials)Is watching a TV show that has risque’dressing, and what is he doing about the commercials?? Is going out to sites on the computer that have very risque’ stuff, and even went to a site called “Sext Health Guru”-Has to do with sexuality such as voyeurism, porn, domination/submission – all of the things he has done in the past, or is doing now. And,
    surprise – surprise!! All of it is with actual semi-nude women acting out the various things. Is definitely soft porn. But, I trust him, right – am sure he didn’t trigger. Wrong!!! He has also figured out a way to go to a site, and it comes up a URL, but does not show the site he went to.
    Haven’t figured out he does it yet, but have my suspicions.
    Does anyone know anything about Java/Java Script? He installed it on his computer for the purpose of wanting to set up his own web site – “Just for he fun of it.” I thought that was kind of funny at the time! From what I have read, Java is used on most porn sites – makes the sites/web pages more dynamic, in that it helps create visual effects to look more dynamic. Can also show and hide content. It will not show me the site gone to. Help!
    My SA is going to be in for a big fall in February when he thinks I am buying into the fact he is not triggering and is able to keep from lieing.
    Didn’t mean to ramble on – guess I needed to vent.
    God Speed, Pam

  161. Pam,
    Java script? setting up a site? no recovering SA goes near this stuff.

    I’ve had enough of this asshole to last a lifetime. It’s really getting old, and you are being overwhelmed with the depth of his addiction.

    Let’s just talk about you from now on. Who is Pam? What does she like? What makes her laugh? What is unique about Pam? What can we affirm about you, Pam, so that you can step away from this quicksand drama and give the hours of each day to your own life goals and values?

    We don’t want to lose you in the relentless story of the SA.

    love,
    D.

  162. Diane – I think you were writing to me. Thanks for the reply. You have me curious – what is Java/Java script? I am really not as consumed as you think. This spyware was on before we separated – I don’t want to have any contact with him to take it off. I have the password. It’s there, so just gathering information for when I see his therapist next week-am sure he is still pulling the wool over her eyes, as well. She seems to be invested in saving the relationship, at least that is he message I am getting. My only dilemna is not whether to file for divorce, but when. I have no misconceptions on whether he is going to get better or not – not in this lifetime, anyway. Thanks for looking after me!! If you can give me some more info on Java, I would appreciate it.

  163. I believe you can get it, but not necessary. My laptop at work I have not downloaded the new Java in years, alhtough it tries to downlaoad it constantly. So it is not needed. I am on the web all the time at work, banking, this site, reading the newpaper, shopping, surfing the web. It has never been required of a website I had to run.
    Answers.com

    Java is a softwear Language.. Java isnt needed unless you plan on Viewing movies/games that are using java such as Most Online Games or Online Video clips java is a very popular programing language.

    I guess this is your answer. Not needed.

  164. Sorry, Sharron and Pam,
    I see it was Sharron post, with a last word directed to Pam that I thought was the signature.

    But I think my point still stands for many of us. We have to vent on this site about our SA’s and their crazy behaviours etc., but we can easily let the story be all about them and what they do. It’s not. It’s also about us and what we do. We have a story too. And we have to set theirs aside in order to recover ourselves and get going with our own lives.

    My challenge is for each of us to pay attention to ourselves. Stop telling their story of failed recovery and start living our own story of recovery that succeeds in first steps taken, new insights gained, honouring our value, remembering ourselves, looking after our needs as if they actually mattered.

    I have vented many times here–and somewhere along the line, I stopped fixating on him and started to direct my energy toward myself. Hence I have a life. Not the one I thought I had when I was married. That was mostly mirage. But now I have a real life with real me in it. Not easy sometimes, but worth it.

    once again, go get your life,
    love,
    D.

  165. Hi Diane – Very good post. I agree with you 100%. It is very easy for us to get consumed with our SA. I have moved on intellectually, but emotionally am still harboring a lot of anger for everything he put me through -a lot directed toward myself for allowing him to manipulate me as long as he did. I am working on that!
    Now the good things. Living by myself is wonderful. I feel such a sense of relief now that I am out of his “madness”. I am so much happier without him than with him! The tough part is learning to live on Social Security.After living in a very nice home, one that I had a huge part in decorating from the ground up, and having financial security to enjoy a very nice lifestyle, it is quite a let down. I lived by myself for 10 yrs. prior to meeting Steve, so will manage once again. At that time, I was making very good money as an R.N., so it is quite a let down. At least now, I have peace of mind.
    I have also joined a new church, am becoming active in they’re environment, and meeting a lot of very nice down to earth people. I went back to my single’s group – not to meet anyone, but to dance (I love to dance) and connect with many friends I have had for years prior to meeting Steve. I also have a very good support system with family. I have three sons and a sister with whom I am very close and able to talk about just about anything with them. They have all told me to get out a long time ago. ( the wisdom of 3 kids and a sister 10 years younger than myself.) Should have listened-would have saved myself a lot of pain and suffering.
    So, as you can see, I am working very positively toward re-building my life and feel quite comfortable with where I am at. I am not sitting around waiting for him to change – that would be a very unrealistic goal. February 14th will be the day of reckoning – That is the end of the three month separation goal I set for myself in determining (With input from his therapist) on whether Steve has had a 3 mo. sobriety. I think I set that goal for myself full well knowing Steve will not be able to meet my expectations, and then I will make a determination of when to file for divorce. (Guess that makes me feel better, in that I have given him every chance to turn his life around).
    Again, thanks for the support from you, Diane, and everyone else on the site who have been wonderful in supporting me, as well as calling a spade a spade. I really think I would have had a much more difficult time coming to terms with a decision if I hadn’t had the opportunity to see, first hand, what you have all gone through and where you are today – a totally realistic perspective.
    God Speed.

  166. Java is a programming platform. It is used as a way to create animation and images generally. A lot of sites require Java to run properly. I think every machine actually has Java installed initially, but like any other thing, its always being updated and needs to be updated on the machine now an then. It allows your machine to decode the programming so to speak. So yes, even though “suspect” sites would make use of Java, so do a lot of legit
    sites.
    Javascript is a programing language, actually completely unrelated to Java. Different technology, different company created it even, so no relation whatso ever. Its used in programming to create what you see on a webpage. The code creates menus, web pages, pulls data from a database, you name it. One doesn’t “install” Javascript, one writes Javascript code. If he is a programer, he could use javascript to maybe alter his browser or use it to launch a site and possibly hide it from the spyware, not sure as I don’t do that side of it. The thing with the URL could be the site itself, doing a redirect. Thats pretty common. For example, if a site has registered several variations on names, but only has one site (hi.com, hello.ca, hi.co.uk), going to hello.ca will redirect to hi.com.

    But look, whatever, java smava, he’s going to inappropriate sites.

  167. “there are worse things for children than divorce. FYI a philandering husband whose habits destroy the mother of their child spiritually, emotionally, and even physically is far worse than living separate lives and healthy co parenting where at least I have a shot, yes a shot, at a healthy relationship with somebody else.”

    These are words of wisdom that should be repeated to every wife who finds out her husband is a sex addict, every wife who knows something is wrong, but can’t quite put her finger on it. I stayed in my marriage “for the children.” I now believe that was a mistake. I should have left 20 years ago when that little voice in my head was screaming “LEAVE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, LEAVE!!!” If only I’d known then what I know now.

  168. I have just put two and two together about this man I’ve been dating for over a year. He wants to marry me. It had gotten pretty serious. I met him 2 years ago. When I went to spend the summer with him, I found pics of women in nighties on his computer. He has been single over 19 years. I asked him to remove them without much fanfare – I just didn’t want to see it. Since I needed to do work on the computer, while I was there I used his. The next week, I found, by accident a speaking program and opened it. There was all of his words to other women in all his glory – words that he had spoken to me over and over again except with dirtier slurs thrown in. Evidently all he had to do was speak and the program typed the words for him. I read it all, packed my stuff and left. I was horrified. It took him over 3 months for me to allow him to see me again. Lie after lie came from his mouth but I didn’t know anyone like this before and I truly thought he had stopped being bad. Yes, that’s what I thought. Silly me huh? Eventually I discovered the websites – we all know the ones – I just had to search for his zipcode and there he was in all his glory with a picture that I had taken of him on one of our summer day outings at the park! He was looking for women who would do things I had never heard of before. Truly I have never met such a man before. He hasn’t been emotionally detached from me since about 6 months into seeing me and admitting he loves me. He still, after all the confrontation, wants to marry me. However, I am not a stupid girl. I suggested counseling and he agreed. He is looking up the programs in his hometown and has found a few. He fills me in on the details. As of today, he has removed himself from the sites – I cannot find him anymore – he did this without telling me or at my request. I know that his IM contact list is probably so extensive that it would keep any man in his situation busy forever, so I am no fool to think much has changed. However, he says he hates who he has become and what he is doing and acts like he wants to change the behavior. He is making positive steps. That said, I am only the girlfriend. I am not sure that I want to be a part of the process of his healing. I have found myself already trying to track his online behavior – his nasty sites password wasn’t that hard to figure out. He is still very active pursuing women who also have issues.

    My question is: Do I get out while I can? After all we are not married. I do care for him and even love him to a degree. But, the nasty is casting its shadow over every feeling I have. He wants to get better and marry me. He has been at this over 10 years. I feel he is too entrenched. I don’t like the snoop I have become so it’s already impacting me in a negative way. Any suggestions?

  169. Hi Just a girlfriend so far- Welcome to our site. You will find a lot of support here, as well as a chance to vent. All of us here have been there, done that, and some of us still doing it.
    You did not mention his age. If he has been at this for 10 years, he has a long ways to go toward recovery – even if he is motivated. At this point in time, you probably only know a small portion of his activities. SA’s are not known for they’re honesty.
    My adivce to you, because you are not married and do not have a lot of time invested, would be to cut your losses and run.
    Is he motivated to work on recovery? It was at your suggestion,(you caught him at it) and he may indeed want to recover, or he may be doing it for you in order to save the relationship. A lot of SA’s want the “normalcy” of marriage, but are more comfortable in they’re addictions than giving them up.
    You just need to know the percentages of recovery for an SA are very low. They may learn to manage they’re addiction, but will always have the addictive personality. Most of them have underlying personality disorders and child-based trauma.
    It will take years of therapy and hard work to get there, and I think you have to decide if you want to go through more lies, deception, and frequent relapses the first year of recovery, and possibly years to come.It is a crap shoot at best.
    From my own experience, I have been married to an SA for almost 1 yr and with him almost three years. The lieing and deceiving is still there. If I could do it over, I would have left a long time ago, but just now have gained the insight to realize that.
    I am a nurse, and should know better, but the emotional attachment got the best of me.
    SA’s are wonderful at manipulation, and most of the time you are not even aware you are being “duped.”
    You are not married to this man, and have not been with him for an extended period of time. You say “You love him to a degree,” but sounds like the emotional attachement is not that strong for you.
    I would go with your’e instincts and informed information about addiction. JoAnn has a lot of valuable information on the subject on her new web site.She will probably transfer your post to the new one and tell you how to access it.
    Again, my advice would be to end the relationship and find a man you deserve!

  170. just a girlfriend so far,
    i totally agree with Sharron. If you are not married, i would leave. If you are willing to stay, you really need to asses your needs and priorities. Is it because you want to help him? because you think he will change? because you love him? you feel that you are the one women who can change him?

    Those statements are not true and will probably never happen. You see we cannot control any of this, and never caused it. Also be aware that porn is typical not all, they usually have had relationships with other women as well.

    The addict will only live in recovery at best, and are always an addict. The addiction will always be lurking. Don;t make your decisions based on how much he whoes you and loves you…they all play this card. The trick is to get past the dizzying behavior that is behind his words. In all reality it does not at all matter how emotionally attached you are to this man. If he is an addict he is an addict. Your love, caring and concern for him will change nothing. I had an incling to leave my SA now husband a year into our relationship, but the time wedding day rolled around two years later, i realized i did not want to marry him, but did anyway…he loves me right? Well I do not doubt that he loves you, but what does that bring to your relationship. If it is you taking care of him and putting up with his BS, then it is not a true relationship. Porn addiction or sex addiction is a disease on intimacy, in other words these men fear it and are not capable of it. These men like to have someone to take care of them, a strong women, she keeps him grounded. And that is what they are looking for. You should always ask yourself, how is this relationship enriching me and making me a better person? If someone told me these things, I would not be here today. I am hoping to help you. Visit us on the new site, or post here. We will help you the best we can either way.

  171. Great post flora – couldn’t be more accurate.
    I have tried to chat on the other site, but can’t seem to do it. Do we do anything
    after typing in our message? Does it post automatically, or do we have to push a
    “send” button or something? I am such a ditz when it comes to computers.
    Hope you are having a good day.

  172. Sharron,

    There are instructions on using the chat under the ‘How To’ menu tab. To chat just type your words in the lower box and hit ‘enter’ on your computer.

  173. Thanks for all the information Sharron and Flora. You have given me a lot to think about. Everything you said makes perfect sense. They seem to prey upon women who care about others.

    Yes, I caught him at it and suggested therapy. I find that behavior so foreign and abhorrent that I have a hard time believing it to be true and existing. I didn’t even know that type of world existed before knowing him. It has caused considerable hurt and mistrust. It’s like a nightmare that I cannot make sense of.

    I am convinced he is seeking out help only to keep me in his life. Therapy was certainly not his idea. I have not heard any remorse come out of him except for what it has done to me. I honestly think he didn’t want to hurt me. He will say “I hate myself” but evidently not enough because he doesn’t stop. Now and again, he evidently forgets he’s with me and will use “catch phrases” that I read on his computer from the speaking program. “Skin to skin”, etc., I’m sure everyone here knows way more than I do about those catch phrases. It makes me want to throw up I get so nauseous.

    I don’t think he meant to fall in love with me. We didn’t have sex until “he loved me” at least 6 months after beginning dating. It was his idea. He said be wanted to give me something no other man had ever given me. It was supposed to be the beginning of our life together and continue with marriage eventually.

    He has offered to give me his password for his phone bills, his email, etc. However, we all know that there are other avenues that he can pursue that don’t involve these – i.e., 15 other email addresses yes?

    He is 51 years old. He’s been divorced almost 20 years. I know he’s pretty entrenched in this behavior. I have read a lot online in the past week. Most sites say 99% success rate with therapy! Obviously, your site disputes that percentage. I am more inclined to believe you since you live it on a daily basis.

    He has been working at my house every chance he gets – changing out my kitchen appliances, changing my water heater, making tons of improvements – really anything he can do, he does happily. He says he’s working towards a goal – getting us together. He drives 200 miles one way to see me every weekend. He gets opera tickets because I love opera – basically does everything I like to do. He sends roses by the dozens for no reason. I don’t really know what he likes to do since he is so willing to do what I like.

    If you were to examine our relationship, it appears extremely normal. When he’s with me, my family, my friends, he is very personable and caring. Everyone likes him and likes him for me. He is so attentive to me and my needs. He is very verbal expressing how he feels about me even to my family and especially to me. He appears happy in his own skin. He’s funny and laughs a lot. Like I said, if you met us, you would say “Go for it.” However, now underlying all the normalcy is the ugly truth that I cannot escape. Like I said, it is so repulsive that I have a hard time believing that the man I date does this with his time. I am horrified at my own behavior as well. To think that I would even have continued in this relationship for a minute more than it took me to find out, makes me shudder and question my sanity. I am a strong person. Or maybe it’s easy to be strong until something so utterly deceiving happens? It shakes my faith in the goodness of others and my faith in myself to an extent. It’s very damaging to all who come into contact with this addiction.

    I appreciate the help during this appalling time in my life.

  174. Hi again,
    I never realized anything like this existed either. My husband is so similar to yours it is not funny. He is affectionate, appears to be caring, bought me presents all the time, and like you he appears to be the jackpot. I never ever thought he would lie to me, I thought he was an honest and kind person. I thought he was 1 in a million; and yes everyone thinks he is so handsome and kind etc. The family thought he is/was great as well. It was those reasons the caring, affection, gifts etc., that won me over. And made me forget any doubts I had about him. Now 8 years later i see the real him. And he will still buy those present, and be affectionate; I just have to accept a life of porn, possible affairs, lies and disappointment.

    If you stay and work it out, i advise you to not get married until you know for sure this is it and he is better. It gets harder when you are married because you feel you owe the time to wait and see. I also suggest finding a good therapist to help you with these tough decisions.

  175. Thank you just a girlfried so far – We are all here as your’e friends and to share our knowledge of what we have learned about the life of an SA. We share our stories of pain and sorrow, and it has gotten us through many difficult times.

    I just want to say “Beware of Greeks Bearing Gifts.” This is the typical MO of a sex addict. In the beginning, they will lavish you with all that what appears to represent the love of your life. They, are charming, articulate – “Mr. Personality” type, and often grew up as the class clown to hide they’re pain. Once they have you, everything changes. It reminds me of “Come into my web said the spider to the fly.” The intimacy and wonderful sex you thought you had with them will wax and wane. An SA is unable to show any kind of intimacy or empathy, and will not be able to maintain the fascade. The addiction is they’re “God” and a way of covering up. The SA lives in a “fantasy world” of superficiality because Watch out for his actions, and disregard his words – SA’s can lie like a trooper.
    I don’t know where you got the STATS there is a 99% cure rate. I am a nurse,and I have yet to see much success in recovery. Everyone else on this site can certainly attest to that. I would say 5-10% at the most. Pretty low percentages to bet your’e life on. I think the majority of literature does not paint a very good picture.
    A red flag would have gone up for me when he told you he wanted to give you something that no other man could – Sounds like a low self esteem issue to me that most of these guys have. It can also be a smoke screen – If they “act” totally into pleasing you, they can capture your heart, but at the same time be totally engaged in superficially with they’re addiction/addiction’s= which escalate by the way. You are right about him offering you access to his accounts. They can always find away around it, even if you have spy-ware on the computer.
    Don’t beat yourself up over this. An SA can sell you the moon and the “green cheese” on it.
    If it sounds like I am trying to scare you – I am. Because you are not married to him, you have the opportunity to build a life with a healthy individual who can make you happy. You deserve a lot more than he can give you.
    I had to post this very quickly, so hope it all makes sense.
    Love and hugs to you at a very difficult time.

  176. Well, it’s 90% not 99%. Still unbelievable yes? Here’s the site:

    The article is “Strung Out on Sex”
    By Jeanette Batz, The Riverfront Times, St. Louis, MO – June 23, 1998

    It’s in the 8th paragraph before the end of the article. It states “On the bright side,” says Schwartz, it’s really treatable. Our success rate is 90 percent-plus.” (Schwartz is Dr. Mark Schwartz, clinical co-director of the Masters & Johnson Clinic)

    I just randomly searched sites over the last few days. This is one I had bookmarked. If I run across any others, I’ll send them to you.

  177. Just a girlfriend,

    Can you post links here to the sites that claim 99% cure rate for sexual addiction? I have never seen that type of claim.

    The normal recovery rate for any type of addict is 5% or less. And, any who manage recovery still have to deal with the personality disorders that led to the addiction.

    I would like to research these sites that make such
    claims if you can post those links here or e-mail them to me please.

  178. I will do some research on Dr. Schwartz. That statement was made in 1998–13 years ago when sex addiction was virtually unknown. I can tell you with all sincerity that there are absolutely no valid statistics that will back up that statement.

    But, I think you are just clutching at straws, searching for something that will allow you to ignore the facts (as in your statement–Most sites say 99% success rate with therapy!) . The main point here is that you are looking at the possibility of facing a lifetime of hurt, rejection and trauma for no reason at all. You have a choice–why take that one? Your focus now should be on identifying what you really want out of life, what you want in a lifelong partner and what exactly your deal breakers are.

    It really doesn’t matter if the recovery rate is 5% or 99%–you do not have a crystal ball that will tell you what your boyfriend will do–and the odds are stacked against him doing anything that is good for you.

    What really matters is what is a deal breaker for you–today, and has he crossed that line? Deal breakers are decided in the present–not the future. Not what he might change into, not what he may or may not do in the future, but what he has done up to this point in this relationship.

    Is what he has done a deal breaker for you? If not, are you willing to live with that happening over and over for the rest of your life? No fairy tales here. Don’t play the ‘well, he wants to change’ game–you can only base his future behavior on his past behavior. Everything else is conjecture.

    Are you willing to live with that for the rest of your life?

    Are you willing to bet your life on what he MIGHT be able to accomplish in recovery? Are you willing to stake your future on what HE does rather than on what you need?

    You have a choice. Think long and hard about that choice. Your future depends on it.

  179. That’s it I’m done.. I left my husband yesterday. Today was our wedding anniversary, so he wanted to surprise me with a “Spa day” I realized halfway there I forgot my phone turned around to get it, walk in the house and there my husband is, in the living room watching porn and masturbating with our three year old son sitting right there… Seriously, that was the final straw.. Oh and did I mention he told me that this was the first time he has done it, since he started therapy back in August What crap is that? Yeah I bet, the one time you do it is when I catch you.. and then had the nerve to get mad at me for not believing him??? Am I wrong for throwing in the towel? We’ve been married for 4 years.. and I am in my early 20’s do I really want to deal with this forever?

  180. Felisha, I think you are very smart for throwing in the towel. Actually in situations with kids, I think we should throw in the towel or atleast kick them out. But really what do you or myself have to work with? How can a kid grow up in an environment like this? How is being a single mom worse in any way? Its not.

    Regardless he has crossed a boundary, and if you are like me, I will never forgive for that. He has proven that he is clearly incapable of choosing between right and wrong; and you will have to deal with this forever. Thank you for your post, you reminded me of the awfulness that happens when living with an SA (I kicked mine out three months ago, ready to make it permanent). My SA did a similar thing, caught him viewing porn while watching our daughter (he may have been masturbating who knows, but all i know is what i tracked on the computer). She was 2.5 then, but never the less he is not watching her, and instead, viewing porn in front of her. And guess what that one time I caught him, he said that was the only time as well (which happen to be for two days in a row). Also into his so called recovery, while attending. You know what these guys do not deserve their kids, and they do not deserve me or you.

    Get out while you can and are still young and take your son with you. Just be sure that you do not fall into the same pattern of picking another loser. That is about the one thing I can be sure to learn from this.

  181. Hi Felisha –
    No you are not wrong at all. Sounds like it was just meant that you forgot your keys and walked back in the house. They always get caught eventually.It seems like they are great at saying “This is the first time I have done it,” or mine will say “It has been three weeks since I acted out, and you can’t trust me? No we can’t trust them. and to have your husband doing it in front of your child would be the last straw for me too.
    Good for you!!! You are in your early 20’s and have a lifetime to find someone who is healthy and treat you the way you deserve to be treated. Stick to it.

  182. I feel so guilty about my son witnessing it, and I am so disappointed that I trusted him, he as always been a good father, but obviously this monster of an addiction is stronger then his love for his son–it breaks my heart. I already talked to a lawyer today and have a meeting with him tomorrow. I also found a nice condo for my son and I, closer to my family He claims to be trying but the fact is he’s not. He goes to one appointment a week, he doesn’t journal or work on coping skills, He’s been to one SA meeting, yes only one since August, he refuses to go to SA meetings because “those people are far worse then he is, they’re disgusting” Well guess what at least they are trying, which is more then you can say. He told me I can have everything, and he will give me full custody, so I am going to run with it while he is being civil and before his :What about me” plead comes out.. I hate the thought of being all by myself, but in reality, when I am with him I feel my loneliest. I want to hurry up sign a lease, file for separation, and move on before I change my mind, but at this point, i can’t. what’s next? Would he ever hurt our child? I don’t know and don’t want to find out.

  183. Hi Felisha – I know how much you are hurting, and I am so sorry. Unfortunately,SA’s will give up they’re families to follow a life of addiction.
    All the things you are telling us about how your’e husband is handling his responsibilities for recovery show he is still in denial.
    He may never hurt your child physically or sexually, but the biggest danger I see here is the emotional impact it would have on him. He is, and will continue to be, exposed to things a child should never have to encounter. The emotional damage it will cause would follow him into adulthood, and he will be as damaged as your’e husband should you allow it to continue.
    You are making the right decision, so stay strong and play your statment of “When I am with him, I feel the loneliest.” over and over in your head. If you stay with him you will feel that way for the rest of your life.
    Don’t let him manipulate you into changing your mind. He may tell you he loves you and you are the most important thing to him in his life, but remember actions speak louder than words – he needs to walk the walk, not talk the talk. An SA will do almost anything to keep they’re marriage together so they can feel they are living a life of normalcy.
    My prayers are with you in this difficult time.

  184. Sharron- thank you for the reminder of the hurt and pain it will cause my son. I am so hurt so angry and so damaged because of this man. And I hate how he knows exactly what to say to me and I hate how guilty I feel, I hate that I have to go through this and that I have been balling my eyes out for the last hour, I hate that I am considering going back… But what I really hate is that after all of this I still miss and love him, when he is “that man” I thought he was and still think he can be, but know deep down he will never be… I don’t know if I can do this…

  185. Yes you can do this Felisha -Of course you miss and still love him. It takes time to heal wounds. The man you thought he was does not exist. He was projecting a false persona – all SA’s do. When you meet them, you see them as charming, out-going, likeable to everyone, charismatic but, they throw themselves into manipulation, lieing and deception to get what they want. After they have you, everything changes and they continue with their world of fantasy to kill their inner pain. An SA is not capable of intimacy, and I’ll bet if you look back on your marriage you will see that all the red flags were there. You may have been feeling it, but he was not giving it.

    If your’e husband was taking positive steps on working towards recovery, the lieing and secret life was out in the open, and his actions were showing you he meant it, then I would say give him a chance – but, I am not hearing that. He is in big time denial!!

    Even if the addict is motivated toward recovery, the chances of attaining it are slim. The best you are looking at is he may be able to manage his addiction. An SA is always an SA, and you are looking at years and years of therapy for him to get to the point of manageability. Then, you can look forward to relapsing. You will never know if he is being truthful with you -I can guarantee with absolute certainly that you only know a small portion of what is really involved with his addiction. Once they have tools in place to manage the addiction, you will still be faced with the possibility of relapses, and most of them do.

    Do you want to put yourself and your’e child through years and years of pain?? I think not! Most important to a child is the same sex parent. They model after them, and take their cues for life from them. I can also tell you with certainty that if you allow your’e son to grow up in this environment, he will most likely have severe emotional problems- same problems as your’e husband.
    You are are young and have your whole life ahead of you. Use it wisely. Get some private counseling for yourself. I hope you have a good support system – friends/family. Continue to keep us posted on this site – The support system here is wonderful, and also a great place to vent.
    I have written this quickly, as I am getting ready to go to bed. Hope I have been of some help.
    Love and hugs.

  186. Sharron, again thank you so much for your very insightful words, and thank you for being VERY honest and not sugar coating it for me.

    I know this IS what I HAVE to do, I have to walk away from our marriage, I have to take his son away from him and most important I have to realize that the person I am in love with does not exist.. and it hurts so much, I feel like the last 5 years of my life were a lie. I don’t understand how he can tell me he still loves me, but lie to me all the time. Since I left (Saturday) he has been to one appointment, and that was today… You would think he would be a mess because I left, but it almost seems as though he does not care either way. But of course he says he does-

    He still says he loves me and that he can’t be without me.. but if he truthfully loved me how could he let his addiction win? He is losing everything, but I can almost guarantee that he has acted out since I left. I don’t even think he is capable of love? I mean is he? Is a SA capable of loving someone more then their addiction?

    All I want is a marriage where there are no secrets, no lies, no affairs, no porn, no masturbating, and no addiction. Is that even attainable? I imagine it will never be attainable with my husband, but I can’t help but to imagine our life without the addiction. So my choices are 1)I can move on, and hopefully one day, find someone who can really love me and my son. Or 2)live in my fairy tale land with my fake husband. Which is worse?

    I feel like after this relationship I am ruined, and I will never be able to have a normal, healthy and loving relationship. I’m 22 and I feel like my life is over. I will always have to deal with his issues. But what I hate the most is it’s his addiction–his not mine and I will be living with the pain of his addiction as if it were my own, for the rest of my life.

    Sorry if this is all over the place and I hope you can make some sense of it, While I am typing I am balling my eyes out…so it makes sense in my head, but maybe not on here…today is a rough day and I miss him.

    PS I also have a question about an argument we got into a few weeks ago.. I asked him when the last time he “used” was he said he wasn’t sure.. but he hasn’t used since the last time I caught him.. My question is– Isn’t it true that an addict knows the exact last time the “used”? to me. I would know since I would be counting the days in my recovery.. What is your take?

  187. Felisha -AN SA is not capable of loving someone more than they’re addiction until they take the positive steps toward recovery, and are totally dedicated to walk that path.Your’s is not! An SA is very dependent, and often picks a very strong woman as his partner. They love in the only way they know how, and it is very superficial.
    I know you are hurting, and you will be for awaile. It takes time to heal, and I have faith you will be able to accomplish that goal.Your life is not over, (You are young)and you will look back on your life with your SA and wonder why you were ever married to him. In time, you will be able to let go of it, and it will not be the focus of your life. You will meet someone who can give you the healthy love you need. Take a couple of years and reflect on yourself before you proceed toward another relationship.
    You need to reflect on your childhood and see if there might be a reason for picking your’e SA. Was the relationship with your father a healthy one? I had to look into my childhood, and realized my Dad was totally unavailble to me on an emotional level, and that my husband resembles him physically and psychologically. Maybe there is a connection with you also. I really think that, many times our childhood rears it’s ugly head into adulthood. Or, it could be that your’e husband was just the typical master manipulator that they are,and fooled you completely.
    Yes, your’e SA can recall the last time he acted out – they have selective memory! They remember only what is beneficial for them to disclose.
    At the risk of sounding like a religious fanatic,(I am not)I have to tell you about my experience with God. When I am hurting, I randomly open the bible to a scripture, and pray it will give me strengthand insight. Interestingly enough, the past two days, I have been struggling. Last night, I opened the Bible to a random page, and the scripture was dealing with a person having parents who have been, shall we say, less than the perfrect parent. It goes on to say that a person has to let go and become a better person than what they’re parents were to them-In otherwords, accept responsibility for your own actions.These SA’s do not have theinsight to do that.Last night the page opened to “If a man lusts after a woman in their heart, they have already committed adultry.” Duh!!
    I thought that was definitely beyond the possibility of “chance”, so prayed and opened the Bible randomly again tonight. The Bible said that “Many people are building their marriage on the sand-They think the love for eachother will keep the relationship- going. They promise their love will last forever, butsuchpromises are often like building a house on the sand.”Again, opening this verse has to be beyond chance.
    I hate anyone who pushes religion off on someone, and I am not tryng to do that – only verbalizing what God has done for me in my life when I open myself up to him.This is just so bizzare how he will speak to us when we need him. These two nights of randomly opening the Bible blew me away. How elsecan you look at it-random chance, I don’t think so.
    Open your’e heart to whatever power you believe in, and you will get the answer and strength you need.
    Sorry for the typos – Am in a hurry.
    Prayers to you in youre road to recovery.

  188. Felisha,

    None of us should have had an SA in our lives.But if it was so destined be it so to have found out about the addiction at 22 rather than 44 !!!

    Yes , since the wounds are fresh ,today , it would feel as if you would never ever be able t lead a normal life.When i found out i really wanted to die.I thought i just didnt have it in me to live one more second.The ugliness of it all was just too much to take.

    But 15 months down the line, i wonder how i was ready to give up my life for a person who is sick.I yet cry , i yet go through severe bouts of depression but my life is my own.

    I am alive and i am happy to be so.

    So will you be one day.

    We were chasing a dream , a mirage.Its the loss of this dream which is so painful.But you are young and you will dream again and you will make that dream come true.

    The SAs are just not worth it.

    Just leave and dont look back.

    The world is full of good people and you will find a healthy man.

    Hugs ,

    Sanity

  189. Just a fast Hello to everyone. I’ve missed being around. I took the plunge and started School/college full time in January and was encouraged to start 1 week and 1/2 after semester began by school counselors….I did and wow what an initial mistake….It was rocky because of so much work to catch up on. But I’m doin it, loving it and trying to work through the fatigue of 13 credits.

    I have told my SA I can’t return to him. I do not know what tomorrow will bring. I’ve two kids to support, no job, a social security income of 860.00 a month. As of May 31, I’ve no guarantee of a roof over our heads…but I can’t go back to living with a sex addict. He’s drug his feet, procrastinated, made excuse after excuse….lied and lied again..but doesn’t stop telling me how much he’s changed because he’s a near perfect attendance with SA and has held back acting out during major trigger events…………progress yes, change..NO…Just 50 days ago he lied extensively over our car being insured when i had an accident….and he relapsed New Years eve…………His life is still a mess, he’s still lazy, he’s still no hobby’s or life, his ex wife and kids still have no clue his addiction so he’s still leading the double life and he’s still the work-a-holic I lived with for a decade. It very obvious he wants a life time of time from me for him to work up to real change…….

    After 9 months he’s finally done the first step…and now among other things is running around saying he’s powerless over his addiction and since Jesus forgives all that we must forgive him too………He throwing at me how hes not missed one 12 step meeting all winter and how he’s realized how “powerless” he is over his addiction. I thought/think I’m going to puke. I am not spending a life time living with some addict telling me how powerless he is when he slips, masturbates or go finds a prostitute…..what bullshit. I had no problems with him using SA as an outside support source but he’s made it his primary form of treatment…and as far as I am concerned not changed a bit. I walked away from his program or whatever you call it, because it hasn’t been anything other than weekly SA meetings and a group meeting at the office of his once a month therapist meeting…………”My sickness had progressed badly a year ago. I knew it wasn’t right but, as the the first step implies, I was powerless.” he says to me in an email today. I have sent him JoAnn’s 12 step fury post more than once and did so again today.

    I do not want a life time of this………there is so much more in life than dealing with some pervert who now thinks he can act out and be forgiven because he’s powerless and the bible say we all have to forgive him………….

    I won’t be able to be a part of the sisters of support because I simply can not afford to pay…but will continue to follow here as always.

    Blessings to all

    Mary

  190. Hi Phyllis – I commend you for your bravory in doing what you have to do to survive.
    It sounds like it will be a difficult road for you. But you can do it. God always provides a way.
    It sounds like your’e SA is only going through the motions – once a month therapy, SA meetings, which will in no way provide a path of recovery for him. This powerless thing they spue at the meetings is a bunch of BS in my opinion. I think of it as strictly a social network where all the SA’s get together and tell their “gory” stories each week and have no direction. (Just my opinion). A good support system, but not a cure. Your’e SA needs weekly therapy.
    I would hate to lose you on JoAnn’s site. I think Married to a Sex Addict may still be a freebe – not sure. JoAnn? Am not sure if she is getting rid of this site or not.
    Love and good luck to you in your brave endeavor, and my prayers are with you. If the site continues, please keep us informed on how you are doing.

  191. Hi Mary (Phyillis), so glad you checked in! I am sooo happy to hear you are doing well! What major did you decide to go with?

    I feel your pain. My SA is the same as we have spoke about in the past. Still lazy, still no real strong effort or sorrow. Same old thing different day. You know ever since I kicked him out he has not shared one thing, not a mention of a meeting, therapy, etc. I know now for sure I did the right thing. I know now more than ever he will put mimimal effort into our relationship, recovery, house, job, kids etc.; just like he always has. It is really so freeing to realize that this just maybe over and I can finally live my life. And take with me everything i learned from this experiance. I get a really happy feeling in my heart and pit of my stomach. It feels good and the right thing to do for me and my kids. I am leaving the bagagge behind as well, he was just weighing me down.

    Anyway Good for you Phyllis. Love to hear from you.

  192. Hi Flora – Another success story of not putting up with any more of the SA Crap!
    They really do weigh uss down.
    My “D” day is scheduled for the last of August. My husband has only made cosmetic changes, and the lieing – omitting, partial truths are still going on. His anger is out of control, and feels outraged at my boundaries. I told him tough Shit. They are staying, and if he doesn’t like it, we can file for divorce right now.
    They just don’t change!!
    I am waiting until end of August to get finances under control, and then I will be on my way – no more games and manipulation from him, and I can finally move on.
    Hugs

  193. I went back to our house, so I could start packing and let my son see his dad (Supervised)… I knew something was up.. Our (4 year) anniversary was Sunday and before I found out about what he calls “Relapses” ( I call you’re a freaking liar and never stopped) and left I bought him a kindle for our anniversary I asked him if I could see it because I was curious about how it worked (And I really was) well looking threw his books I found a bunch of erotica one book was called “The Princess and the Penis” and I was a little hurt and told him that this was inappropriate for a recovering SA, he got mad and said well it’s not like it’s porn.. okay I said but I still don’t think you should have it. Continuing to browse I found his old search history, and guess what full of porn, I guess it’s true a SA will do anything when desperate, and for you all who don’t know the kindle is only black and white, and has no sound.. Seriously how desperate! I am glad I made the choice to separate from him

    This will be the hardest thing I have ever had to do because I love him, but I am starting to realize I am in love with the person I thought he was, not who he really is.

    I am running, far away (to be exact 18 hours away)he is a master manipulator, and I WILL not give him the chance to prey on my weakness of loving him.

    I am tired of the lies.
    I am tired of the porn.
    I am tired of the compulsive masturbating.
    I am tired of not being loved.
    I am tired.

    I will be happy one day.
    I will heal myself.
    I will live my life to the fullest.
    And eventually, I will let go of all of my anger towards him.

    Thank you all for your support, and I am so grateful to have found this site, You all (especially you Sharron) have confirmed my worst fear, that he doesn’t love me, he can’t.. and it hurts, but I have to face it. And I thank you for the honesty, because in reality, There is none in my real life.

  194. Felisha,
    You are very stong and we are all very proud of you!

    Thanks for the info on the kindle. I think my SA got a kindle for x-mas from his parents. Oh well. They are supposed to making sure that the SA cannot get porn at the house, guess they just opened a window for him. It makes me sick, he will figure it out in no time, if he has not already. (I kicked out my SA and he lives with his parents, i warned them about him and to provide a safe place for my daughter on her visits). Guess that I can;t trust that it is a safe zone anymore.

    But I love your post when ever you feel weak, come back and read it. You are very smart! Keep us posted and good luck to you.

  195. Hi Felisha – Thank you so much for the kind words. Isn’t it wonderful we can all share stories with eachother and gain insight. We all have something to give to everyone, and that is what makes us all so special.
    Good luck to you – I hope you will continue to let us know how you are doing. If this sight goes away, maybe we can keep in contact via E-mail if you cannot afford the new site. Let me know. You also have been a great friend, and I would hate to lose sight of you.
    Love and hugs.

  196. Just to reassure everyone, this website is not going away. It will be reorganized to make it a little easier to find stuff and will be trimmed and prettied up, but it is much too important and popular for me to think of taking down.

    This site has a much different function than the Sisterhood of Support. This site will remain as a source of information, stories, articles and resources for women who are in a relationship with a Sex Addict and I will continue to be a part of it.

  197. Congratulations, JoAnn,
    on launching “membership” day on your new site, Sisterhood of Support! I hope our wonderful community will flourish there with a sense of security and privacy, the easier format for starting many topics of interest, and for making closer connections with each other.

    Thank you also for this site, which is how I found help when I was so alone in the nightmare of being married to a Sex Addict.

    with much gratitude, respect and affection,
    Diane

  198. Thanks a ton for taking free time to write β€œPam’s Story: ‘Commit Or Quit’–Her Husband’s Shocking
    ResponseI Am Married To A Sex Addict”. Thanks once more ,
    Ellis